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  • Legal Clarifications

    TL;DR - Suggestion: "Good Races" and "Anderson Act" need clarification. Criminal charges Assault, Murder, Rape, Mayhem, Banditry, and extortion all reference the undefined "Good Races". The "Anderson Act" doesn't actually list that it does anything for the people registered, is this intentional?
    /TL;DR


    Specifically regarding what protections the Anderson act actually affords. As it stands neither its announcement in the forum or the wiki describe in any depth what function the Anderson Act has other than being something listed races need to carry it... without listing at all why other than public assumption.

    Additionally the term "Good Races" is cited multiple-times in the legal body of sundren without defining the term at all. It can be assumed that the "Good Races" are traditionally considered all humans, all dwarves, all elves (other than drow), all halfings, and all gnomes but assumptions are notoriously difficult to defend in coded legal bodies.



    Further more combining the two:

    An enterprising and cunning lawful character could currently, due to lack of clarification on the part of the laws themselves, happilly slaughter an anderson act holder and harvest their organs in openview with nothing that could stick on him legally. This is not a mere "Loophole" it's a glaring failure in the legal system to provide reference to any wrong doing at all - something Helmites scribes and scholars would be keenly wary of.

    Rather than going into a lengthy arguement over it I think a simple example would suffice, I'll use one of my own characters as reference as he's someone who although he acts stupid is without question profit minded, malicious, and canny enough to do this as perhaps the supreme example of lawful evilness in the name of personal enterprise. This scenario is also directly related to why I came up with this in the first place. It's also more amusing than a dry argument.

    And so, because I am bored and have time to write it up: A fictional case study in sundren that could actually happen.

    ------

    Citation of State: vs. T. Bladecleaver, Adjudicator Ramalamadingdong of Helm Presided

    Day 1:

    Recitation of Charges:

    Adj: Mister Bladecleaver you stand here before a state appointed and divinely empowered Adjudicator of Helm charged with acts of Murder and Assault with intent to Murder of Jim bob the registered Aasimar, and whatserface the registered Tiefling. How do you plead?

    Mr. Bladecleaver: Not guilty.

    (...Fast Forward a bit...)

    State: So you admit to killing Jim Bob? Would you care to explain to the court why?

    Bladecleaver: Well, it's believed in some circles that half-celestial organs are readily transferable to any being they're placed in. Specifically their eyes are valued for curing the blind, their hearts and lungs for respiratory and circulatory issues, and their limbs for the maimed and crippled - among others. Whether or not this is true I don't know, personally I suspect it's entirely nonsense made up along the way to give comfort to the suffering. I'm not a medical expert, however I do have buyers for such things and they are willing to pay a great deal.

    State: So you killed him and susequently butchered him for organs? Out of a motivation for personal enterprise by taking advantage of what you openly state is a farfetched superstition?

    Bladecleaver: Correct.

    State: And your assault on Whatserface, is there any truth in this charge would you care to explain that?

    Bladecleaver: I attacked Ms. Whatserface and tried to kill her for much the same reason. Half fiend organs are valued in many magical and religious rituals; specifically their horns are ground and burned as incence in summoning ceremonies, and their livers are read in certain divination practices, finally their tales are favoured collector's items to some.

    State: I... see. Your honour, we've no further questions and rest our case for closing arguments.

    Adj: You are certain?

    State: Yes your honour.

    Adj: Do you have anything to add in your... defence, mister Bladecleaver?

    Bladecleaver: Nothing.

    Adj: ... Very well. This court is in recess until the morrow, whereupon the defendant and then the state will present their closing arguments. Dismissed.


    Day 2:

    (... Fast forward to Arguments...)

    Adj: Commence your argument, Mr. Bladecleaver, if you would for the court.

    Bladecleaver: Very well your honour, thank you. Now while it may appear open and shut there is a lingering issue that's failed to be addressed in any of the precedings - the criteria for murder and assault.

    Citing specifically - on murder, and I quote the relevant article: Murder is defined as the premeditated taking of the life or lives of a member or members of the Good Races, regardless of origin or citizenship.

    And on assault quote - Assault and Battery are defined as crimes of violence against another or others of the Good Races, regardless of origin or citizenship, where Assault is the threat of violence and Battery the infliction thereof.

    However, in both cases member's of the good races fail to be defined in legal criteria at all, let alone in cases that need to be registered under the anderson act. It stands then to reason that the individual I killed was no more a member of the "Good Races" than a common orc, or a sentient pig. No wrong doing was done, a product was located neutralized and extracted - in short hunted and butchered for products of and refined from their body. No different from a hunter tacking a deer for its hide to market, or a fisherman taking one of the nation's many hearty river trout to market scrimshaw.

    The state even goes so far as to facilitate the activity, which I thank the state for making so easy what with them being mandated to officially and publicly register.

    The truth however, is that I'm being wrongfully charged and victimized for nothing short of personal enterprise in the trade of animal product. These accusations border on slander and personal financial damages in that they're not supported at all by the publicly available criminal code.

    Moreover the Anderson act lacks any and all detail affording the exception from violent actions taken against them, they are nothing more than tagged and registered humanoid beasts holding documents that say so. There is no basis of defence to be found within them, save the foolish notion perhaps that "all sentient beings are inherently capable of good" and that some document supposedly proves that. That being the case there's literally no reason not to register other beasts collectively and pre-emptively recognizing and defending this "capacity".

    Are we to start considering gnolls and goblins members of the Good Races? If so then we've need to charge half a country side of honest hardworking farmers, foresters, and other workers of the land with murder.

    No, these charges are patent nonsense in the face of inadequate definition. No criminal wrong doing has been done here, for no law has been broken at all. Regardless of whether the burden of proof would lie on myself to prove against the claims of the state, or the state against me. As an enforcer of the word of law surely the court can see the dangerous implications of flirty with such broad undefined legal wording? Surely the court sees its moral obligation to support the progress of law by throwing these claims out and demanding better definitions.

    I have nothing more to say. The floor is yours, prosecutor.


    State: Uh... The legal boundaries are left so broad in order to address the value of moral common sense among the uh... good races. And the ...

    (Fast forward final judgment)

    Adj: We have found, after much consideration that the legal code, and thus the state, inadequately presents clause or example of how T. Bladecleaver's actions violate in any part the criminal code of the land. As immoral and despicable as his acts may be there is no legal grounds for condemnation - nor is "common sense" of the, as such undefined, "Good Races" any justification for the interpretation of this court in favour of the state. Further more it is the duty of this court to inform through court record the demonstrated inadequacies of the system it is deigned to enforce.

    The defendant T. Bladecleaver is found not guilty of murder, and not guilty of assault and should be free to carry out his business as it is not in violation of any laws or conditions of the state of Sundren as defined by the body of its criminal code.

    -----

  • #2
    Yes much god moding, however it does highlight the key points and as the legal code stands that's pretty much how it would HAVE to go, there's no dancing around it - the anderson act effectively does nothing at all and assuming this is unintentional something really should be done about that. Other important keynotes:

    - The legal definitions are insufficiently addressed ESPECIALLY for a strongly Helmite region with Torm thrown in. Leaving such glaring failings would likely be an affront to bureaucrats, legal practitioners, and politicians of a lawful bent. It also literally fosters an environment where murder and violence against those not defined by "The Good Races" is not only possible but sheltered by lack of definition.

    - The legal system has remained static since the Anderson act was established. Literally nothing changed to show examples of what the anderson act actually does. As it stands a lawful good paladin would be morally justified, infact not doing so would be WRONG and evil, in opposing its presence violently if necessary. It currently exists as nothing short of state mandated extortion against the innocent - even though some of the people it does register and charge for the doing maybe evil the fact is many may not be. "Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer" being perfectly defencible here - criminals can be recaptured but the innocent are forever an example of the failing of justice in these cases. It would not be worth it, in my eyes, for a paladin to allow such a brazen besmirchment of the virtue of justice to be commited openly -repeating that it is currently litterally nothing more than a meaningless state mandated act of extortion.

    - These regions of the legal code have FAR reaching consequences lore wise. Speaking from a completely out of character looking in at the world standpoint now; we have a region that is supposedly extremely lawful and supposedly has a very strong codified legal system in effect to support that and yet, if you look into it at all it really doesn't at all. Now I recognize that the server doesn't need a full on 205 article criminal code or something but phrases like the "The Good Races" and articles like "The Anderson Act" need more definition both for in character purposes and for OOC reference in the event that someone is playing a law enforcing legionaire and is asked to explain the meaning - if he can't explain the fundamental meanings behind some of the laws he's enforcing then what reason does my character have in doing so?


    Discuss?

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    • #3
      Sundren needs more lawyers .
      Kili - mercenary of the Blackwood Company
      Sile - impoverished free merchant, looking for her own happiness
      Lindi - wandering bard and actress

      Comment


      • #4
        Some of the legal tenets were intentionally left ambiguous. Some were not. I think the Anderson Act was left ambiguous to this degree on accident. However, the Anderson Act was created during IC play which I wasn't privy to to understand it's whole function.

        Taking a crack at it, I believe the intended function was to recognize a registered individual as one who chooses to adhere to Sundren laws, thus declaring themselves an atypical member of the "Good Races".

        Good Races was the term used but specifically is meant to refer to: Humans, Elves, Half-Elves, Halflings, Dwarves, Gnomes

        These are considered "Good" races, and though the term "Good" is used, it's more meant to mean "Can obey the law without causing trouble for people."

        Personally I feel Half-Orcs should be included in the list because they make up a larger % of the Sundren populace compared to other races, but I didn't make the Anderson Act as I said.

        There is also a history IC'ly of races in Sundren which has built up over time. One major one is Drow who had been walking around the city demanding to be recognized as good guys even though they were causing trouble and obviously murderous. I remember a Bard/Pale Master, for instance, who demanded they be treated correctly even though they were walking around with undead.

        So for awhile an intolerance policy came into play. Especially against Drow/Tieflings. However, logically, there can be unmitigating circumstances so the Act comes into play.

        Maybe we need to update and clarify some of the laws. I think this might be a good IC task for a law oriented character if you ask me.

        Comment


        • #5
          The Vellik Act is just as vague, and other than a religious tax, does not seem to guarantee anything except some vague threat of "punishment" for not registering and fails to even state what that might entail. The only mention of a specific punishment falls under the paragraph of reward for turning people in and can only be read as a punishment for a false ACCUSATION of membership.

          The way it reads: Its legal to worship Bane or Shar, you should really register or some punishment might befall you. Turning in your neighbour will get you a reward, lie and you get fined.

          Both Acts leave out the punishment section, unlike most of the other laws; murder for example, lists everything that can happen.

          Comment


          • #6
            A lack of legal precedence notwithstanding, the Anderson and Vellik Act could be treated like Article VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. In doing so it would make any malicious act perpetrated against Half-Orcs, Aasimars, Tieflings, Half-Drows, Gensais, Gray Orcs… and Banites or Sharists, based solely on their race, color, religion, sex, or national origin to be unlawful. To be counted amongst the “protected class,” these individuals merely have to follow the established law and register with the appropriate act at Port Avanthyr, city hall Sundren, or with the city watch.

            If the Anderson and Vellik Acts were treated like Article VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, then the “enterprising and cunning lawful character” could not “happily slaughter an Anderson Act [registrant] and harvest their organs in open view…” no more than they could do the same to a Human, Paladin of Helm.

            More simply put – the Anderson and Vellik Acts make it unlawful to conduct a malicious act against anyone solely base on their race or religion [exceptions noted].

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Double_Tap View Post
              More simply put – the Anderson and Vellik Acts make it unlawful to conduct a malicious act against anyone solely base on their race or religion [exceptions noted].

              I agree with what your saying but the heart of the issue is the vellik and anderson act don't state their intent or purpose at all, they very literally just exist. NOTHING at all outlines their intent, which even the broad list of the civil rights act covered. Additionally title VII is merely a portion of a full act that when you put it all together is rather clear in spite of its far reaching ramifications. It's very obvious what it does if you read through it.

              The Vellik and anderson act lack this fundamental clarity completely. They exist to exist as far as their content is concerned. There's not enough about them to even speculate what they do at all. The civil rights act outlined its intent and its function clearly on the whole, the vellik and anderson acts do not.

              I'm not saying its bad to have broad reaching legal documentation - I'm saying its bad to have unclear legal documentation. Frankly it does surprise me that with as many helmites running around as we do none of them have brought that conflict up.

              The point stands though: it really should be something breached in character by someone, it's an interesting story premise.

              Comment


              • #8
                Vellik act specifically states that you are an enemy of the state if you are not registered due to the circumstances within Sundren valley.

                I am going to added some information to the Anderson Act and reword the Vellik a bit to make it very clear.

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