Resting Arbitraryness

[The Almight Red]

It's a nice thought, TBS. But the problem is, they'd have to rework a lot of the content considering challenges provided are under the assumption that casters can rest every 10 minutes to rebuff a party (if they ever do, for that matter), and helping them 'game-on.' There are very, very few buffs that would last 30-45 minutes early on, even when extended. You'd have to at least be level 15 for your 1 min./level buffs to last that long on extend.

It would dramatically change the dynamics of the server's leveling challenges and encounter challenges. And I just don't foresee the DMs/Devs having the time to rework it to such a dramatic rate.

If you hop onto a server like Abyssya and check out their content challenges, it's dramatically different from Sundren, because their 'grinding content' is built around a very limited rest system.

Frankly, I like the idea of just sticking to what the core original post was about. The real people that are hurt by this rest system are not most casters, but instead the fighters. They are the last people that need excess baggage, when you consider the dynamics of the classes in PWs, in my opinion.

I love the idea that resting takes longer. 30 seconds seems reasonable to me. It also makes it so you'd want to make sure you're in a safe spot all the more, and aren't just looking for a quick 5 second reprieve.

At the very least, it'd be nice to see warrior classes like Fighters and Barbarians getting fully healed when they rest, and not getting penalties while resting in armor. Because as I said, there's simply no way you can RP realistically that 'resting' in your armor is actually sleeping anyway. Let's be honest, here.

[Zoberraz]

The Almighty Red touches on what I was going to bring back up too. The uberness of casters is established and a deadhorse topics, so focusing on the other aspects would seem like the thing to do.

As I see it, a good way to attend to the concerns of the opening poster is to make resting for warriors more 'worthwhile'. I'm not fond of the 'full HP heal' idea because it entirely nullifies the advantages I get from my ranger's high survival skill, but maybe there's some other way.

Presently, when we rest, we regain our level + ranks in Survival, right? Unfortunately for warriors (whom most often don't have zilch in Survival), regaining their level in HP means recuperating a measly 10% of their hit points whereas a d4 HD caster in a similar posture will recup 25%.

Now, ideas:
1. Resting allows any character to recuperate a minimum of 25% of their maximum hit points. This way, a high HP character actually recuperates as much percentile-wise as a wizard - making this equal.

2. The constitution modifier could play an important role in resting HP recovery. Instead of being (1 x Character Level), it could be ((3 + Con Mod) x Character Level). Wizards are unlikely to have high constitution, whereas it becomes more common the more the character is made to be a tough frontline character. Unfortunately, this idea tends to kick the viability of finesse character in the balls pretty badly (dex fighters, rangers, rogues, etc...).

I had to choose a base number of 3 because the minimum constitution score NWN2 player characters can get is 6 for a -2 Con bonus.

3. Resting benefits could be based off on a character's Base Attack Bonus rather than the Character Level. The BAB is a value which increase with levels anyhow, and characters which have higher values usually end up being the tougher types anyhow. Doubling this value would insure that Wizards still get their character level in hit points, while the gains for pure fighters would be greater.

4. Similar to Idea #3, but instead of basing the hit point recovery on base attack (some classes like the EK can make that value misleading), instead use the Fortitude save as the base value for a character's ability to recover. Fortitude already has a role in resisting health impairments and saving against bleeding when at death's door.

Characters with high fortitude are usually the ones that are the tougher fighters anyhow.

5. Open up access to a 'Rapid Recovery' style feat which would allow the beneficient to largely (+100%?) increase his HP recovery everytime he rests. Assigning a Fortitude or Base Attack prerequisite facilitates tough warrior characters obtaining it while not keeping out of reach from others. Possible fighter bonus feat too.

6. A 'Healing Surge' style feat inbuilt into classes which would open access to something similar to the similarly named feature in D&D 4th edition. These could trigger for a number of times per rest equal to ((maximum hit points / level) /2), only out of combat, to regain 25% of their total hit points. I'm thinking of an activable ability format here, similar to, say, stunning fist or wildshape.

A 3rd-level barbarian with 14 Constitution would have 42 hit points. Following the paragraph above, that would give him an activable non-combat ability to heal himself by 10 hit points on every activation. The same barbarian at 10th level would have 140 hit points. The number of activations (7) to (now) get 35 hit points would be unchanged and thus appropriately scale with his average hit die and constitution modifer.

If the number of triggers is only provided at the end of a rest period, then the number of allowed triggers per rest won't be affected by any Constitution-boosting buffs, though Con buffs will improve the high points recovered by each activation.

This would focus in awarding high hit die, high constitution characters with a way to regain hit points in between fights beyond the recovery given to them by the rest action itself. At level 20 with a base Constitution of 10, a 240 hit point barbarian will get 6 (the equivalent of 360 hit points) such uses in contrast to a 80 hit point wizard whom will get only 2 (~40 hit points)... this will also favor casters, of course, but really not as much as it would favor warriors - most especially those that invested in high constitution. Also, it doesn't really require any modification to the current rest script - and rather instead the scripting of a new feat which would then be added to each character on login.

tl,dr? Number 6 might be the best idea of the lot.

[chupacabra]

Great post Zoberraz. Lots of thought went into that one.

I personally love the rest restrictions, and am well used to the idea of taking off my armor to rest at this stage.

To be honest, the thing that gets my knickers in a twist is the way restoration negates rest penalties. This feature seems to play into CoDzillaism and makes divine classes more powerful. I don't think the boost was intentional, but it is real. /rant (sorry, had to air that one)

Now for hopefully constructive ideas!

As Zoberraz said, the simplest way to tweak this one would seem to be one or more additional feats to help balance high-bab, medium/heavy-armor melee classes with the rest rules in place:

Within forgotten realms lore, some classes can rest uninhibited while wearing armor. As has been mentioned in this thread, something simillar (possibly included in the fighter bonus feats?), even with a CON or bab or class restriction, would solve much of the problem.

There is an existing feat that might mimic 'healing surge,' but make it more melee-centric due to 15+ CON recuirements:
Boosting or changeing the healing done by 'second wind,' and even making it a free feat for barbarians at a certain level, would function simillarly to healing surge. Not to necro any old topics, but there were two very interesting suggestions in THIS THREAD http://www.sundren.org/forum/showthread.php?t=13873. One was to make second wind heal 1d6 * CON bonus. The other was to make it fire off automatically when you go below 0 hp. Changes like this would make it a good feat for any frontline fighter, and make them a bit more resillient overall.
Constitution, as stats go, suffers from the law of diminishing returns, and I support any measure that makes it more relevant.

[Subal]

While i understand why people dont like others using restoration i play both sides , i have a fighter / tank and a cleric/ caster . I have seen people get broken arms and scars that magically poof are gone without ever having any problem with getting a restoration spell cast on them, even lesser. You arent going to get your cake and eat it to, you cant say

"Please ask your god to heal my ugly face because i was born as ugly as a troll"

"Please heal my bones i got attacked by a goblin and got my ass kicked."

"Please restore my powers after resting so that i am strong enough to handle all those who wish to harm me"

Not sure if those two examples made exactly the point i needed, but i think i got the idea across. I have seen people take scars away that were nothing more then disfigurments that caused them to be ugly. So why cant a cleric or anyone for that matter use a potion to get rid of resting fatigue?

I have been told this is D&D so bascially trivial things such as scars , broken bones, and disfigurments are easly changed and gotten rid of. One of the things that irk me a bit about it , dont make a system where a man can change his damaged goods by waving his hand but cant make himself feel better cause of a shitty night sleep .

I See it as biased, and would rather see the system designed on levelx1.5 = minutes you need to wait to rest. Then actually make the Fortitude worth something for higher level tanks, make it so based on fortitude or con that our hp is regenerated during rest, isnt that what con is about ? how hardy you are? No joke Gromlin doesnt even rest if he is in the wilderness, cause he loses more hp then he gains.

[Fezzik]

We're missing something here I think. Only a moron would march through a goblin infested cave with little skill for an hour. I look at it more this way. You are spending a lot of time, going back and forth to "base camp". If you actually did spend an hour in a goblin cave to their main chamber, you'd get swarmed and likely ambushed about 20 times as they heard you coming.

Yes, it may break the "immersion" somewhat, but realistically, we can't really sit around of even 24 game hours and wait can we? It's a game, and if you make it tedious people are not going to play (honestly, if you want to go out and fight other people, join the SCA or some other medieval recreation and wait for a full week before you get to go swing stick ).

And we can't forget the fact that Sundren's valley is at least 100 km across (look at the sign on the old Valley Road, 50 km to Sundren City). You can go from Sestra to Mossdale in a blink of an eye in our time, but really, it would take someone killing a horse to get there in a day.

How picky do we really want to get here?

[nezzerscape]

It's not that time between rests being too long that makes fighter so difficult. It's actually that the time between rests is too short. Being able to rest every ten minutes hurts heavily armored fighters. It actually turns their intended higher durability into a weakness when their friends with tons of magic can rest every few minutes and be back up to full strength with their entire arsenal of magic at their disposal. Being a durable tough type who can dish out and take a beating at the same time has very little value in that situation.

This was taken out of the original context. It was to go along with limiting the spells a caster gest back every time.

Increase the rest timer to once every 30-45 minutes and make resting impossible in any area that isn't upstairs at an inn or a faction HQ. You could mitigate that by allowing players to carry around firewood or something that would let them rest in the wilderness (but not in the streets of towns) but the 30-45 minute timer would still be in effect. DMs can force rest PCs so if it needs to be done during an event that won't present a problem.

This increases the value of a tough guy's durability and decreases the value of relying on spells to become an invincible war machine. Using magic to enhance the tough guy fighter types suddenly becomes a much more efficient use of those spells and it increases the value of finding a party to adventure with.

It doesn't nerf casters at all because they could still buff themselves to the nines and go out and slice and dice to their heart's content but it makes it a lot easier on them to find a tough guy to bring along.

The best idea I have read!

"Oh powers that be... please make this happen" lights some candels...

[Quoth The Raven]

Duh, where did my post go? It's not there anymore on page 3!

[Doubtful]

Seems the forums decided they didn't like you.

Sorry about that, you know how it is with some hardware - fussy fussy fussy.

[Root]

It's a nice thought, TBS. But the problem is, they'd have to rework a lot of the content considering challenges provided are under the assumption that casters can rest every 10 minutes to rebuff a party (if they ever do, for that matter), and helping them 'game-on.' There are very, very few buffs that would last 30-45 minutes early on, even when extended. You'd have to at least be level 15 for your 1 min./level buffs to last that long on extend.

I don't see the problem with this.

After all, a Cleric with ALL of his 1 min/level buffs on, constantly, along with all his long-term buffs and round/level pre-battle buffs is essentially invincible, and can reliably take out multiple enemies way above his CR, alone, with very little in the expenses department.

A lone Fighter/Rogue, Ranger, or even Weapon Master would have trouble with that kind of challenge.

[Quoth The Raven]

Anyway I was just sayin' - if the resting system, coupled with equip unequip times, came in to nerf gish characters, why not put a temporary arcane spell failure effect on them, that lasts enough to make it unpractical, everytime they unequip armor? Like, you unequip, you get the same ASF % for one minute after.

[The Almight Red]

I don't see the problem with this.

After all, a Cleric with ALL of his 1 min/level buffs on, constantly, along with all his long-term buffs and round/level pre-battle buffs is essentially invincible, and can reliably take out multiple enemies way above his CR, alone, with very little in the expenses department.

A lone Fighter/Rogue, Ranger, or even Weapon Master would have trouble with that kind of challenge.

The fact that this doesn't create more fun content, because it doesn't even turn a cleric into being able to reliably buff other people. If you make it so his buffs last a third of the time it takes between resting, you're going to eventually hit content where it becomes a bit of time of grinding, and then long waiting periods before you can rest again.

This isn't a solution to the problem, in my opinion. It's just another element that seeks to limit casters. Again, you're going to find that you'll need some drastic changing of the leveling content on this server overall.

Take, for example, the constant scenarios you've found yourself in. You have continually died over and over. Realistically, it's best to party with buffers. Mages or Clerics.

Of course, the problem is usually those clerics are greedy and only like to buff themselves. It's ridiculously common on this server. And many of the characters themselves even blatantly admit it. But, that's In Character, at that point, and a matter of Roleplaying.

I don't think destroying the capability of casters to be able to contribute reliable buffing power to this sort of server content is going to solve anything. In fact, it's going to dramatically hurt.

I imagine you will see this, once you hit content like Argyle Keep, Schild Mountains, and especially the Mossdale. Even content like the Cartel will be very difficult without a buffer if you start actually fighting them when they give decent XP. You will get chewed for breakfast in all that content without reliable buffing, no matter what class you are, yourself.

But, hey, if you can convince the Devs to entirely redesign the leveling content, I'd be right behind you on extending the time it takes before one can rest. If such was the case, I'd love to see people only being able to rest in Taverns. But until such a time, it will be far, far more a pain than an assistance.

[Root]

Hmm. So you're saying at high levels it's impossible to adventure without buffs.

Also, the only way to get buffs, is to be a caster yourself.

You also say that these casters with buffs generally won't use them on anyone but themselves.

Therefore the only class able to dungeon at high levels is a cleric?


If the yardstick is set at Cleric, then non-casters will struggle. A lot.

I play fighter classes for the same reason that when most games offer me a difficulty setting, I pick 'Hard', not 'Easy'.

Anyway, my only request was that the Fighter-types stop having to be the only people subject to a lengthy, vulnerable resting period (1 minute +)

[The Almight Red]

No, actually, to the yardstick being clerics and only them buffing. I already mentioned that mages are amongst those buffers. A warrior along with a mage can prove a potent combination. Mages have the capacity to buff AC (such as both Imp. Mage Armor and Spiderskin), buff AB (such as Greater Magic Weapon and Greater Heroism) and give damage mitigation (Stoneskin).

Another caster class that can buff are druids, that can also contribute a great deal of buffs to others. Death Ward, Stoneskin, Tortoise Shell, etc.

I did not say the only way to get buffs is to be a caster yourself, but that there are many casters who do only prescribe to buffing themselves. It, by no means, includes everyone. There wouldn't be as many leveled individuals as there are if no one was willing.

And... I'm glad you pick it because it's Hard? I mean, great. Alright. But that's not really the purpose of a PW in the first place. It's not Diablo, and there isn't meant to be a difficulty setting, to be honest. Creating reliable content for a PW is difficult, because you run into a great many problems of balance. D&D is not a balanced game, and then when transformed into a real time environment such as NWN2, it becomes even more pronounced.

It's just a fact, and it will never be solved. Ever. Unless the game is completely overhauled, like... a new edition of D&D or whatever.

And as I said quite some time back, I'm entirely for getting rid of the resting fatigue for warriors. Hell, I'd like to see them even healed to full, personally, because being healed to full every 10 minutes for a warrior isn't going to let them zerg content, anyway.

[Root]

Can't argue the power of a Fighter & Wizard or Fighter & Cleric, but with so quick rest times, there's little to no way in which a Cleric & Another Cleric don't outclass the Fighter & Cleric.

There's the one-way-system thing. A cleric-buffed Fighter is as powerful as a full-buffed cleric (Considering Divine Power and the self-only buffs). But the Fighter alone will be much less powerful than the cleric alone.

But then the argument gets to magic items (I know it does, I've seen it argued a million times :P ), and how there's the fact that Cleric are much more significantly powerful with lower-powered magic items.

Argument then goes on to the fact that A) Powerful divine casters means more are played and that this makes the world much more full of magic than the low-magic-item system suggests, and B) The way that the power of said casters makes them much more common which generally results in less dedicated divine-class roleplay, i.e Preaching your God, converting, etc.

Anyway, I really shouldn't be getting into the whole debate, it's tired me out after many years of it and all that comes from it is people arguing over how powerful divine casters are and how to nerf them into the ground.

Nothing fun comes of it.

Fighter Rights! *waves banner*

[chupacabra]

Fighter Rights! *waves banner*

Woot!