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  • A Few Suggestions

    To this day, the server I came from on NWN1 -- the first place I ever RPed -- maintains a player count in the 50's to 70's depending on the time of day. It's been this popular for many years now, and there are a few key features that I believe have contributed to this, which I'm recommending for Sundren.

    1) The first and most important thing in my opinion, is that the server took measures to make all communication able to happen IG, requiring absolutely no forum RP. Players with carpentry skills could craft message boards, and players with artistry skills could craft paper, and with both, a message board and easily accessible supply of paper meant that players could leave messages for one another to make appointments, plan affairs, post slanderous threats... whatever. Normally, people would commission message boards to be made for their faction house for communication, to put outside cities and list bounties or exiles, to advertise their services, etc.

    The paper alone was a good feature, as you could actually write letters, contracts, paperwork, and other things conductive of RP. You'd "use" the paper, type a message in the public channel, and it would copy your text onto the paper when you clicked "done". This paper could offer an actual practical use for forgery as a skill, able to sign someone else's name, or something.

    More than this, a messenger service was implemented, whereby a player could head on over to the messengers, pay some coin, and have a one-way message delivered to a recipient of their choice. The messages were rather similar to the "Sending" spell Sundren has, though mundane, with a cost, and able to be used by anyone - not just casters. These were useful for alerting people of important affairs on short notice, requesting an audience, or just passing along information. There was also a town crier service, whereby a crier at a populated place could be paid a small fee to repeat a message for a few hours whenever someone walked by.

    2) Along with message boards, craftable placeables. Yes, I know NWN2 isn't like NWN1, in that the outdoor terrain isn't flat which screws up how things sit on it, so restrict craftable pleables to the indoors, where most of the placeables are more useful anyways. Alters, pillars, chairs, tables - the list is endless. This gives a functional use for a lot of the crafting skills, outside of combat-related creations. It allows decoration or re-purposing of an area, offers a new thing to do with the endless amounts of money people have on Sundren, and gives another use to what I hear to be underused crafting skills.

    3) Suggestion 2 is only marginally useful without the implementation of something I understand to be controversial: player housing, which is my third suggestion. No, I'm not suggesting custom housing - just properties that are premade, simple, and available for purchase. There's an initial cost and then a weekly tax, the tax depending on the area. The types, quality, and cost of housing would distinguish the cities from one another, and give people a reason to love or hate governments and complain or approve of their policies. Sestra might have more farming property than Aquor, which has more merchant property - and Aquor's taxes are higher, giving the areas different feels. "Player Housing" can mean a farm, a little chapel, a living quarter, a social club, or any other thematic building. These properties can be as plentiful or limited as the server can handle, and having them limited isn't bad at all - it makes it competitive. If I want farmland and some douche owns the only available plot of land, there becomes IG conflict. These interiors can be decorated by players who purchase services of crafters who can make furniture and the like.

    This opens up a lot of RP. From the day I joined Sundren, even to now, half the evil shit happens in the crossroads barn. Why? Because nobody has anywhere else to drag or lure their victims. If a murderer owned a house, that could be his crime scene. If a drug-dealer needed a place to do business privately, it could be in his own lab or on his own farm. If a cult wanted to worship secretively, it could happen in their own dwelling they fashioned out of a tiny shack for sale near Sestra. The owner of a building can give out as many keys as he wants to his house, and loses the house if he doesn't visit it in a RL week to a month, to keep things circulating. As an optional addition, properties may only be purchased by citizens of a city (requiring registration and maybe a fee) which further distinguishes one city from the other.

    4) Have cities and/or factions require resources. Ore, woods, foods... raw materials that can be salvaged with the appropriate skills, such as mining and lumberjacking or whateverthefuck Sundren has that I'm not remembering. This makes people with those skills valuable, and it makes those resources a source of competition. This would require the resources becoming somewhat more plentiful than they are, in order to meet the increased amount of uses and demand there'd be. When a city or faction doesn't get enough resources, maybe it has to raise taxes on the property owners, raise cost on goods in stores, lose access to certain goods (which will hurt faction stores). When a city has a surplus, all those consequences are reversed to benefits. Cities and factions get these resources through citizens or members gathering them and putting them in a community chest or something.

    - - -

    Now I know this may all be intensive to script or code, but that's a reason for this to take a while - not for it to not happen. That is, if these ideas are accepted as beneficial in the first place, though I think they are. I can give more details and specifics if requested, such as a greater list of craftable placeables for each skill, a list of raw resources to gather, types of properties and their functions and possible locations, whatever.
    Pyras: Red Wizard of Thay, High Arcanist of Illusion, Master of the Enclave's Knight Commander.

    Currently taking apprentices, and conducting research.

  • #2
    Your first two are things I'd like to see as well. For the second one, I know there's a DMFI message board that exists, and I've suggested using it before... I think Saulus was working on an original plugin that would serve a similar purpose.

    I understand the problem you're raising with 3, but I'm not sure player housing is the best solution. It's worth considering at least. Before 4 is implemented, the crafting & resource gathering system needs to be overhauled. It's like a fifty-seven step process to get a hunk of iron or a wood plank. Ugh. :P
    Originally posted by Saulus
    Stop playing other shitty MMOs and work on Sundren, asshole.

    Comment


    • #3
      <3 you read my whoooole post.

      And yeah, I recognize that if anything, this is a long-term plan that may need refining or may hold problems of its own. But by the authority of my post count, I suggest this anyways.
      Pyras: Red Wizard of Thay, High Arcanist of Illusion, Master of the Enclave's Knight Commander.

      Currently taking apprentices, and conducting research.

      Comment


      • #4
        I played on the server mentioned here and I have to say it really helped to immerse a player into the environment. Good ideas in my book.

        Comment


        • #5
          I agree with 1, 2 & 4. Certainly 4 - I feel that cities and towns are currently tragicaly under-used.

          However, 3, I don't agree with. And even if I did it'd probably still be best not to happen.
          The big issue there is module size - NWN2 has a finite size, once that size is reached all expansion and addition stops. Player housing would add a lot of areas, meaning bloat on the general module size - Personally, I'd rather see the time spent to develop and construct player housing spent on constructing cool and interesting areas for the whole server population, not a funhouses for cliques.
          It is the greatest of all mistakes to do nothing because you can only do a little - Do what you can.
          Sydney Smith.

          Comment


          • #6
            There's a hundred lovely excuses everyone can think up to justify saying that player housing is a bad idea, but I've played on a server where it's implemented, and it was by far the most awesome thing that server had to offer. Having your own house gives you a place in the world like it's completely impossible to have otherwise. I appreciate that it's still extremely unlikely to happen, but that's because it's not wanted, not because it's not possible, or a bad idea.

            I can't really see why reducing forum activity would improve IG experience though.

            Also, We love you Kangleton.
            Lorlen Locke: "Amazing how the righteous commit acts of tyranny and terror almost as beautiful as our own under their banner of "good". We merely call a spade a spade."

            "If you can't learn to do something well, learn to enjoy doing it poorly."

            Comment


            • #7
              I can certainly see reducing it, in favor of ingame communication, as an improvement. I don't think Kangleton was advocating the complete and absolute elimination of forum RP.

              Things like the messages people RP on the forums of actually tacking to message boards/taverns/etc. In such mediums, people can never be caught posting it by a sneak, for instance. People can never be challenged after posting it.

              However, if people had a forum or medium to actually post such messages in character, it could have so much potential to stem out of such.

              And this is just one small example, that could productively add a great deal of flavor to RP. The possibilities are far more reaching than this one scenario.

              But I imagine Kangleton still recognizes the benefit of things like RP posts that are bereft of actually being able to represent ingame. Things like missives to NPCs, and other things such of that nature.

              All in all, it adds a new dynamic to the actual roleplaying within the game. It is more immersive in such a respect, without it forcing people to stop using the forums.

              Comment


              • #8
                I feel sorry for the poor shmogh that would have to script this all .

                As an alternative to housing, I think a short term gap, if one wants to see it that way, might be to provide a storage system at the bank (been said before too I know).

                I have no qualms and like the other ideas. I wouldn't worry about people not being able to put up messages by stealth. In a busy tavern, right after harvest time, no one is really going to be looking at a board to see whose posting that they have an enchanted sword for sale when they're worried about feeding their family. If you're worried about someone seeing you, emote every time you slip in to the shadows ( * Disappears around a corner *) that way, the other person should at least ask you to make a check if they can still "see" you with the way the engine works (If you're behind someone, stealth doesn't work on them if you're in their LoS). That way messages could be posted in stealth... and if it's a manifesto, and you have to take time writing it down, then you deserve to be caught - if you post a note that says "Joe Was here!" then you shouldn't get caught.

                It leaves a little more flavour to add things to a board, but how long do we keep things on a board... a day IRL is to short, and a month might be to long.

                I like the resource thing too. It's like the donation box idea. Cash goes a long way, but I don't think they're keeping track of it yet (correct me if I'm wrong).
                Bree - Bookkeeper and diplomat of Exigo.

                Becky Dragonhin - Sword of the Loyal Fury, Knight of the Triad... the only Good hin in Sundren???
                Cybil Gelley (Retired)
                Perry Turnipfodder - aspiring talent, happy chronicler.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Player housing and ingame message boards will never happen on Sundren.
                  The very existence of flame-throwers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done.

                  George Carlin

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Good to know. Why?
                    Sago Trumperstomper--Halfling Bandit (retired)
                    Hraligar Brittlefist--Dwarven Superiority Advocate
                    Kraz't Goretusk--Goretusk Tribe Chieftan

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I'm waiting for the player ran store. Where PC's can sell their crafts IG. That will be a huge boon to crafting and boosting the economy of Sundren. Hoping thats still on the list of things to do.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        It's a good thing Saulus at least explained w-- oh wait. Nevermind.

                        And as a final comment on player housing taking up too much space, a lot of it can be the same area. A house in Sestra and a house in Aquor can occupy the same area, though with no connection to each other. They'd both be tiles on the same map, but on opposite corners with no tile-link between them.

                        And the message boards wouldn't be to eliminate forum RP: things like journals are never a bad thing, since they're used to broadcast RP that would otherwise be unknown to others. Missives to NPCs as well, as was said, since that can't be achieved via a message board unless DMs constantly check them. The message boards would just be a method of allowing a lot of things normally on the forums to happen IG, where a greater amount of interaction is possible. Also figure that the location of message boards will become focal points, since people will want to check up on them. If you put them in taverns, people will spend more time in taverns. At city gates, people will spend more time in city gates.

                        But hey, don't worry about it anymore. The visionary helm of Sundren has spoken.
                        Pyras: Red Wizard of Thay, High Arcanist of Illusion, Master of the Enclave's Knight Commander.

                        Currently taking apprentices, and conducting research.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Exactly Kangleton. These are two things we've flat out said we won't do. If you really want to know why, you can probably find the answer on the forums -- but hey that's too difficult for you to figure out I know.

                          Players will not have ownership of buildings other than inns/taverns and on DM considerations they may work at one of these establishments. It's not a matter of how -- we can do instancing and pre-generate furniture, etc... but it's one of our tenants. We don't want players to actually own ingame property, for a multitude of reasons, the main one being it's just plain redundant with inns. If it's that important for the progression of your character, that's why we have DMs, there are exceptions if the right requirements IC are met... again this is a case by case basis and does not warrant us developing a system for it.

                          I don't want ingame message boards because I want people to use the forums instead. The only way this could/would be implemented would be if the IC Forums integrated ingame with a solution -- tricky and likely not worth the effort.

                          While the crafting suggestions certainly are along the lines of what we envision for crafting, the biggest problem is we could invest tens and tens of hours developing it, testing it, etc... and a good portion of people will login and never touch it once. That's just how it works.

                          Also just so everyone is clear, my intent is not to have 70 players. If that happened Sundren would likely be shut down because I, nor does anyone on the staff have the desire to put up with that for the pittance that gets donated in return. A harsh reality, but true. I already put a significant financial investment into Sundren because it hasn't been more trouble than it's worth, so far.

                          When you see what we HAVE been investing our time into, it will make a lot more sense because it's not geared toward a minority of players.
                          The very existence of flame-throwers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done.

                          George Carlin

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I think these enhancements would be awesome. There are so many good suggestions on ways to enhance Sundren.

                            I do think that we (I know that myself is included) tend to forget that this world that we all love and are addicted to was created and is kept running primarily by one man and his small band of skilled workers. I do mean “workers” for I know that it is work. I really love what I do for a living, but bringing it home is another story. Friends and family call me for support. I do enjoy helping them out but when I become their personnel “1-800” number I hate it. So much in fact that I no longer do it (stating that if they’re not running Linux or Solaris I cannot help them).

                            I am so happy that Saulus and his staff (all of them) have not reached the point I have. I would much rather have Sundren as it sits today, than not.

                            As for the financial piece. I have been meaning to donate $100 per year for that is what I would spend in new games (games that I have not purchased for I am addicted to this world). But as with most of us, there is always something more important (shoes for the little ones…) that takes our money. I do so appreciate all that have been contributing to my crack, especially those that take the brunt of it, Saulus. I know that it has been listed elsewhere and it is not about money (its about the love of the world) but perhaps a little reminder that this place we all love so much costs $250 (?) a month to keep going. For those who cannot do the math, that’s $3000 a year.

                            Thank you all, staff, supporters, and player for keeping this alive,

                            Nez
                            Elandra: A former Red Blade, now roams the wilderness with the Lone wolf as her guide
                            Alexandra: Ever faithful (just shy of a Zealot)
                            Yodglum: May Kossuth's flame light your way and burn those in it!
                            Ash: Dusty old miner of still looking for the "mother load" on Exigo's stag

                            Shaving kittens: not an official sport, but fun just the same

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I'll just give the major reason why we don't have player housing here to save time searching.

                              Player Housing was an issue on module resources in the past. Thanks to instancing we truly could have player housing with minimal resources used on the server... however...

                              Player housing has encouraged on many servers cliques. Essentially it gives a closed off area for people to conduct whatever RP and exclude others from even being near it. Since nwn1 I've seen this problem first hand. I've seen people that would sit in a house and hang out hours on end, barely leaving these places. It's sort of a natural phenomena.

                              This is the main reason we put the inn into the module. We wanted a location people of differing histories could bump into each other often, encouraging people to branch out on their RP.

                              I'd rather have, personally, publically accessible anonymous locations (Like the barn) all over the module than have people have housing.

                              While some people may go "I wouldn't do that". I know there is a great many who would.

                              There are of course small details beyond this one that turns people off to the idea, but that is the major one. We want integration, not segregation.

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