Draconic Sight

[Nil]

8d6 sneak attack and then HiPS next round? That sort of something? Or just being able to spy on whatever non-druid they want, for as long as they want? Or setting traps in front of you without breaking stealth? There are a plethora of options available to a crafty stealther, which isn't bad. But what I don't like is that unless you are a druid or spirit shaman you really can't do anything. In PnP sneakers have to maintain concealment, but in NWN2 they can dance around you at high noon as much as they want.

Please, Mr. Cleric. Don't go complaining about how overpowered rogues are. This is not an argument you're likely to win.

[cdnspr]

My vote? Leave it as it is.

Seeing any invis for 1hr/level is sweet enough as is. That takes care of anyone whose investment in stealth is a potion. If someone is willing to invest the skills and feats into stealth, then all the power to them.

Incidentally, this path would result in less work for the devs

Btw, building for anti-stealth is very doable; i had a character on another server who made decent money as a bodyguard, completely destroying any hipsters within a stone's throw.

[Thief Of Navarre]

Well for wizards who lack divination - a 11 wisdom and a few levels of cleric quickly sorts that out! So again not really that great for a fifth level spell when you have things like Mind Fog at the same level.

with the advent of the theurge there is virtually no weak school for wizards now and necromancy just became even more potent

[thaelis]

Maybe make Dragon Sight a lesser level spell or something, but don't buff it up to make rogues even less useful than they already are. You want to know what's a good spell to be nerfed? Living Undeath. All that sneak attack, gone in an instant due to a second level cleric spell.

I've personally never memorised dragon sight. Its unlikely a fight with invisibles would last 1/hr per level (unless you're a DD that is...). If you can't hear their presence then...yes its good. But, if you can't hear them, who says you would be able to see them even with See Invis?

In summary..yes, Dragonsight could happily be dropped a level in my humble opinion.

Living death..wtf!! even LG Clerics seem to spam this spell on their party before fights...something which i react too quite disgustedly IC. I'm sure that could be nerfed and still be a well used spell. And make them turnable for some real laughs

[TheBrogueadier]

Yeah, then you get your glorious round of sneak attack (if you're lucky, cause sometimes you just get a single attack), and after that you're a sitting duck for six seconds. Guess what happens usually - I know, I play one.

One word: Feint.

With that lovely little feat not only do you get to reduce your opponants AC, but you get to chain in all your +8d6 damage on every attack!

6-7 +8d6 sneak attacks - Fungasm.

[Nil]

nevermind - suffice to say, feint doesn't work quite like you've portrayed it.

[Peridan]

Feint relies on the opposing characters BAB and Spot. So against a cleric or practically any other melee class that has a higher BAB, the chances of it working slim down considerably. But yes, it is a nifty feat for a sneaker to have, when sneak attacks are available.

[TheBrogueadier]

I wasn't suggesting it was the most epic of feats - but it's certainly a feat that shouldn't be overlooked, if you need to aim for more than one round of sneak damage and don't have HiPS it can (if you've invested in skill points and items) be an absolubte life saver (Well, not for the person you're fighting).

You're still stuffed if they're crit immune.

[Intrepid42]

If anyone is inspired to create a sentinel-type PC, don't forget that Dwarven Defenders have Spot/Listen as class skills...

[Machiavelli]

I thought this was a thread about dragon sight

I still say dragon sight is worth it. Never leave home without it imo!

[Talleyman99]

Right I'm glad talking about a Sorc wiz spell sparked off the cleric rogue debate. Was only looking to have a spell more match it's in game description. Guess we can file this one in the "it isn't broke don't fix it." area. As I said was not upset with hour per level see invis, like it myself cast it and stand around watch all the other casters move around. Adding spot and listen was just a fun idea for the spell, and well it was not going to let your normal Sorc/Wis spot any of the good sneakers anyways, so there was no real need to get up in arms over that.

[Silas North]

I'm iffy about giving D. Sight a spot/listen boost mostly because of what bards would be able to do with such a thing. With Inspire Competence, C/C, and Amplify, a high lvl bard can already get his listen base to 50-60. Even Logan and Fenton (the two best sneaks on the server) can't dodge that. Druids and Rangers are not far behind those listen scores either and of course several races have listen bonuses.

In defense of the rogues: Rogues are difficult to play and don't solo too well overall in many situations. True, there are far more +stealth pieces of equipment than +"THERE you are!" pieces, but that's a necessity. If it were up to me, I'd say there should be even less +spot/listen gear and spells (that means Dragon Sight), even MORE +stealth gear, and Epic Precision should be a bonus rogue feat, not just an epic feat.

In defense of everyone else: While they may be difficult to build and even more difficult to play, rogues are not even close to being an 'inferior' archetype. Most pcs are NOT equipped to see dedicated sneaks, nor are many npcs. They are also quite capable of wielding a lot of rp potency, with a HUGE amount of skills and skill points at their disposal. Then there's the glory of UMD. All too often a class that is touted as "overpowered" is really just versatile, idiot-proof, and has the benefit of their foes giving up too easily. Though I'd knock a few choice spells down a peg, I don't think certain classes being 'inferior' or 'superior' is too much the issue. ((templates on the other hand... *cough*OPvampires*cough*))

All in all, I think it is not bad as it currently is. Sometimes I think adding true sight to the spell might be interesting or at least let the spell see etheral creatures but NOT see through shapeshifting or illusory disguises. After all, we've had a few complaints about etheral and this would help knock that ability down a notch while not harming stealthies. In fact, it would IMPROVE stealthies' situations as it makes it harder for a wizard or cleric to do their job by just going etheral, forcing them to rely on making stealthy friends. Also, it would be nice if there was a way to make the spell actually let you see in the dark.