Draconic Sight

[Talleyman99]

After reading the spells descriptor and seeing what the spell does for a level 5 spell, it is not really all it can be.

Range: personal
Target: you
Duration: 1 hour/level

You gain the visual acuity of a dragon, including, low light vision, darkvision, see invisible and blind sense.

Now all the spell really does is give see invisible for 1 hour per level, while that is nice it is a 5th level spell many lower level spells do much the same. Maybe if the duration was dropped to 10min/level and a Plus's to spot and listen where added? Making it so that your senses where more like a dragons?

[Machiavelli]

For those without access to divination, it's well worth a level 5 slot!

[Philosopher]

I'm with Talley on this. The spell is essentially an Hour per level See Invisibility which is nice... but really not worth a 5th level slot.

I think the suggestion is quite reasonable. Reduce duration and add a bonus to spot and listen skills would make it a very nice spell and its hardly overpowering considering its a spell only arcane casters (with mostly abysmal perception skills) will have access to.

[Fezzik]

Blind sight and see invisible are 60 sec per level, as are the rest of the lumped in ones. Taking all of them together, with the extended time makes sense to me and it being level 5. Maybe make a Clairvoyance/audiance upgrade at higher level instead of nerfing the Dragon Sight? (or make amplify a wizard spell too?)

[Lothoir]

Well with Blindsense you are supposed to know where evryone within X feet of you are, with no hide or move silent checks allowed. In NWN2 Blindsight is just See Invis, so I don't see any reason at all why it shouldn't at least give a bonus, like +10 or +15.

[The Almight Red]

Probably because A) I don't think Blindsight is a second level spell in PnP that every frickin' caster class has access to, so now they automatically know where all sneakers are, and B) that'd be so cheap in NWN2, anyway.

[Lothoir]

Blindsight is a third level divine spell in PnP. I don't think it would be cheap though to add the bonus to Draconic Sight, though. On Sundren there are almost no skill items for spot or listen, but you can get a stealth item for almost every slot. So again, I don't see a reason why rogues get to be perma invis with no countermeasures available.

[Quoth The Raven]

Perma invis? You mean invis until they do something, right?

[The Almight Red]

The way the mechanics work in NWN2 actually severely fault the sneakers. Namely, the largest one, being that you get a check every round to find a sneak, and three times a round if you have Searchable turned on (which elves always do).

This is not how it works in PnP. Why this creates such a problem for the sneak in NWN2 is the fact that there's a large randomization factor inherent in the d20 system. The twenty. What this means for your sneak is they have to have such a huge bonus above another's Spot/Listen to stay hidden, or they're simply SOL.

In the end, a sneak must put a much, much, much heavier investment into their skills than a spotter, because a spotter need only win one opposed roll, while the sneak must win every roll if they want to stay hidden.

As to no countermeasures available. Druids, for one, with their ridiculous Wisdom coupled with Spot/Listen (especially if they're an elf, then taking the custom Sundren listen feat).

And everyone else? I played a paladin with a very high Spot on this server, because I invested the feats into it, with no actual items to buff his Spot. It can be done. You just have to invest in the skills with Feats, much like those sneaks have to do the same, if they want to stay hidden. I don't find this unfair, in the slightest.

And if they put a buff to Spot/Listen on Dragon Sight, I'd hope it'd be small enough where it's not overpowering, considering the duration of that spell. Because contrary to popular belief, it's easy to get any class with Spot/Listen in NWN2, with that lovely feat called Able Learner. Sorcerer/Wizards already do have access to Clairvoyence/Clairaudience, which can be persisted, no less.

[Lothoir]

8d6 sneak attack and then HiPS next round? That sort of something? Or just being able to spy on whatever non-druid they want, for as long as they want? Or setting traps in front of you without breaking stealth? There are a plethora of options available to a crafty stealther, which isn't bad. But what I don't like is that unless you are a druid or spirit shaman you really can't do anything. In PnP sneakers have to maintain concealment, but in NWN2 they can dance around you at high noon as much as they want.

[The Almight Red]

This sounds more like a beef with sneakers than anything having to do with balancing spells now, to be honest. First, I've already mentioned anyone can build for high Spot/Listen. Anyone. I don't find it an excuse that since you're sneaked around, it's not fair. Otherwise, what's the point of a sneak?

Everyone should have a chance to see them? Of course not. Build to see them, just like rogues often have to build to stay hidden.

Second, if you know they're dancing around you, I assume you can spot them. If they're doing that while they're supposedly hidden, the wiki makes that clear that's not cool. Report them. The wiki is abundantly clear on this issue. It's impossible to stop all people from abusing a game mechanic. The way of the world, so to speak. If something can be abused, someone will abuse it.

But it doesn't somehow inherently make the entirety of such an archtype wrong or unfair.

I so rarely play sneak characters. But it still seems like I see them get some of the worst of people's ire, simply because those people didn't build to see a sneak.

It'd be pretty darn boring if everyone could see sneaks, to be honest.

[Cornuto]

"Oooh! Those darn ol' rogues keep beating my weapon master and cleric PCs on skill checks. I'll complain how overpowered they are right after I get done supreme cleave critting all these monsters for 100+ damage a swing and spamming storm of vengence."

[Quoth The Raven]

Yeah, then you get your glorious round of sneak attack (if you're lucky, cause sometimes you just get a single attack), and after that you're a sitting duck for six seconds. Guess what happens usually - I know, I play one.

[Peridan]

Not to mention that casters have such a huge advantage over every other class in the game, that I don't think I'd like to see a further enhancement of their abilities. Maybe make Dragon Sight a lesser level spell or something, but don't buff it up to make rogues even less useful than they already are. You want to know what's a good spell to be nerfed? Living Undeath. All that sneak attack, gone in an instant due to a second level cleric spell.

[The Almight Red]

I have to agree, frankly. Not only do Clerics get Stone Body, they get Living Undeath which means their whole party is now immune to Sneak Attacks. And they can persist that on all their allies. Yeesh!

Edit: Dude, Peridan. 1 more post before 1,000. GET IT.