Level caps on certain areas

[Lothoir]

I think part of the problem is that Veritas never do anything. They are supposed to be a rebellion, but all they do is hand out gold and xp to trick or treaters that come knocking.

I've never completely been able to understand the Triumvirate and sometimes even loyal Legion PC's that 'empathize' or 'understand' the Veritas, acting as if they're the Rebel Alliance and Sundren is the Empire. The simple fact is that the Veritas are taking up arms against the lawful government of Sundren. The rebels can claim it's as illegitimate or corrupt as they like, but they are killing soldiers that want nothing more than to protect their families from goblins, orcs, and Banites. Not only that, the Veritas have set up shop next to a vein of adamantine. Adamantine the Legion could use.

Whenever one of my PC's gets taken to task by another PC for attacking Veritas they always bring up that 'They haven't done anything'. I'd like to suggest that they start doing things. Have them launch a few raids on military targets, get them to actually try and accomplish their goals. In the meantime my characters will be combating a massive destabilizing force in the region that could weaken Sundren enough for the Black Hand to finally take control.

And as for the original question: Why do you want a level cap on areas? Does it really bother you that much how other people spend their time in a video game? Does it really hurt you that much that people can quickly gain gold?

[Machiavelli]

And yes, my original point was because level 20's and 19's run through to get a quick 5k+ in gold.

I think the original point of Fezzik's post was this bit, a matter of OOC factors making Veritas a prime place for farming gold and items. Discussing the morality of the situation is something else entirely, and a bit beside the point. I'm tempted to agree with the above statement, having witnessed many xp/item/gold oriented incidents of circle grinding the Veritas hold while on the DM client. I'm sure those people who might be doing the wrong thing know it, and I'd implore them to exercise some restraint.

[Fezzik]

And as for the original question: Why do you want a level cap on areas? Does it really bother you that much how other people spend their time in a video game? Does it really hurt you that much that people can quickly gain gold?

* snicker * I don't mind how people spend their time, its the Risk/Reward aspect of the whole thing. For most 18+ char (even an 18th level Warlok can do this alone) there isn't any real risk attacking the Veritas, so there shouldn't be any real reward either. There are bigger fish out there that people can do, and if they think Mossdale is easy, they haven't played a lot in the Graveyard

[Lothoir]

You don't mind how people spend their time, just so long as it isn't at the Veritas? And yes, spellcasters can do Veritas, and every other area, pretty easily. Pure fighter builds however have just as hard a time doing them at 20 as at 11. If you have a good group and everyone is high level, which 18-20 certainly is, then there are no risks anywhere. I've been part of panty raids on the Citadel, check Peridan's gallery for the pics. Does this mean no one should ever get any rewards for being able to form a cohesive group, since there are ultimately no risks once you've accomplished that?

I'm going back to my original point. It does not affect you personally, but it does make the game more fun for others. Why is this a problem?

[Nil]

Maybe the Veritas should consider some sort of public image campaign to discuss WHY their way is better and what they hope to accomplish, because truthfully, my character has only seen them come to light with villianous actions - torture, mutliation, and the like.

Now, obviously, I've not been running the mountain every day (Gromlin could kill me by looking at me crossly), but on the occassion I've had the chance to defend the rest of Sundren by culling their number, I've taken it because the Veritas have done nothing except shout "We're evil! Kill us all!" (even ooc, I have no idea why the the Veritas think they're better than the current goverment or what they'd do differently).

In short, to this point, they AREN'T anything more than terrorists. Perhaps if they changed that, they'd get wiped out less often. And they have really powerful weapons that disapear when they die, which is really wierd to me.

Oh, and if there was another spot to kill humanoids of equivalent level, that would help. Undead and stuff just isn't the same since you have to deal with DR, level drain, etc.

PS - A level cap on areas makes no sense, and would take alot of the danger away from the game. No more PC killers in the Hills, vampires on the road, etc.

[Phantom Lamb]

Let's reign it in folks. You can talk about IC decisions to attack the Veritas in another thread. This thread is about the mechanics of the CR and gold reward there.

There's really two areas in the Schild Mountains -- outdoors and indoors. Indoors is tougher than outdoors, or at least it should be. Are the indoor NPCs not tough enough? Are the CRs not appropriate for either portion? Are the indoor bosses a major source of loot? I'd appreciate everyone's impressions on these. Thanks--

[GodBeastX]

I think the morality comes into play a bit too Phantom. Less people attacking means less issues as well.

However, to separate the two, I'll make another thread and kick it off with my viewpoint.

Mechanically, this may seem OP to have level 20's running up the mountain, but as stated on numerous occasions dungeon crawling is semi-OOC. It has to be.

There are more goblins in the cave than a group of level 3's can handle, just like there are more veritas in the mountain than a level 20 can handle. If these forces were to take the most optimal attack strategy then pretty much every player would be dead right now. However, for the sake of characters progressing, these "Dungeons" are setup where only a few at a time are attacking you.


That being said, players shouldn't trivialize the encounter by bringing their successes in these dungeons into IC. Meaning that people shouldn't go "Oh, veritas are nothing, I slaughtered over a thousand of them by myself!"

This is what I mean by partially OOC.

I would not, in good conscience, set a level cap on any area. It ruins something more important which is RP. For example, earlier there used to be restrictions on people above CR going into areas at all, when this occurred druids/rangers/etc couldn't even go into the forests... how fair is that? I'd hate to see a sundren legion member unable to even enter into Veritas' holdings, there's too much RP at stake.

If this is a matter of defenders wanted to keep high levels out, then I guess I'd say you might have to find an IC way to deal with these threats. Maybe make a deal with some other PC who happens to be high enough level and get them to help you fight the enemy players.

Once a few areas in the works are finished, less high levels will be in the veritas to begin with, but as it stands, it is the current method for going to higher levels.

[Phantom Lamb]

I know morality comes into play, but I wanted to keep focused

Most campaigns in PNP are set up to be level-appropriate in their challenges. All the good campaigns that are written take CR into account when creating their encounters. Putting level 20 PCs in hostile areas with lowbies goes against the spirit of DnD in my eyes.

That being said, the fault doesn't lie in the players -- it's the rigid area set-up that we have to use in a NWN2 module. In a PNP world, it's a wide open sandbox. Here, we have to force people down certain roads to reach others. Druids have to reach the grove through the forest.

So yes, it isn't fair to keep those nature guys away from nature. But, I wouldn't put the blame on CR area restrictions; rather, I think it's the rigid setup of any NWN2 module. Within these confines, I think we should keep level restrictions off areas.



Other solutions for this I'd suggest is tweaking the CRs and strengths of the Veritas. If folks have responses on those, I'll take a look later. It's been a while since I've fought that crew!

[Subal]

[QUOTE=Lothoir;100575]I think part of the problem is that Veritas never do anything. They are supposed to be a rebellion, but all they do is hand out gold and xp to trick or treaters that come knocking.

Here is where people do not realize, that the veritas are very active in doing things. You dont see everything because your not in the bunker planning and plotting, spending the thousands upon thousands of gold to prepare for such events.

For a very long time there was only two active veritas. Gromlin and Corvus, and we could only do so much. For some time it was only me, and now we have began to grow and we are expanding our idea's and working on much larger plans.

As for the idea on dropping the CR/gold/exp for higher level i thought that sounded like a pretty good way of stopping excessive farming of the hills by 19 - 20's . or simply do exactly what is done in the other places....higher levels the monsters spawn higher level.

Just a though

[Maevan2]

higher levels the monsters spawn higher level

I didn't know the Veritas accept liches and dragons as members

[Fezzik]

I guess when I opened this can of worms, I should have (but didn't think of it at the time, sorry ), said change the CR then. To me, it amounts to a level cap in my own mind. If at level 7, I go try to poke goblins, I get nothing for it, because at that point, it's to easy... just as it is to easy for most 19's and 20's.

I dispute the whole, "I'm a fighter, I can't do anything on my own" mentality, sorry ... if you're a 20th level fighter, you might have a hard time against a fully buffed PC cleric or mage, but the NPC's don't buff themselves nearly as much, and you generally have better equipment than the NPC fighters, and, if you're smart, a whole lot of healing potions they don't have access too.

So, in summary, yes, I think some of the CR ratings OR the strength of the opponents, needs to be changed some. If I'm not mistaken, an encounter with a CR rating equal to your own in PnP, you should use roughly one quarter of your resources (spells, potions, HP etc). The way the mechanics of NWN2 works though, this is rarely the case once you get to a certain level... you can kill things a lot faster even if the CR is the same as your party just because you have bigger guns (Slingshots vs Goblins at level 3, Hellfire Rockets at level 11, and small tactical nukes at level 17)

[Subal]

Yes!!! that is what we need a Damn dragon golem your brilliant!!!!! *runs down to the bunkerto begin making plans* mwhahahaha!

[Lothoir]

Rather than lower the Veritas CR I would increase the Argyle CR and gold. Instead of dissuading people from killing Rebel scum, encourage them to kill possessed villager folk!

Once the new Argyle area is released, provided there's enough gold and xp incentives, Veritas and Mossdale will end up relatively empty of high levels.

We need gold for new equipment, bribes and other things. If it can't be made with a 10 minute Veritas run then everyone will start crowding Mossdale, which takes significantly longer and leaves less time for roleplay.

And on Mossdale, increasing either their CR or spawn numbers would also cause a big boost to tourism, since they spawn in far fewer numbers than Veritas but have similar gold drops.

[Subal]

Now on a more serious note, i know it may be not anytime soon cause i know you guys are busy. But what if eventually there could be a outside veritas more indepth then simply running up the hill?

the outside would be ranged from where the entire mountain of schild is now. And when you do make it inside, perhaps a level 18 place wouldnt be to bad? This woul still give the place to levels up to 16 , 17 outside, and if they felt ballsey or had a good group could even go inside and try to handle them.

[Lothoir]

I wouldn't be opposed to that, and while we're on the subject this is as good a time as any to ask that the walkmesh in the first big hall be fixed. Please!