The Second Wind feat.

[Gurkak]

Second Wind

You have learned to control your body and focus your thoughts to rid yourself of fatigue.

Requirements: Con 15+
Benefits: You can heal yourself for 1d6 + CON modifier once every ten minutes up to a maximum of three times per day.

I would like to suggest that given the fact Second Wind is based on an ability, and is limited to usage once every ten(10) minutes/a maximum of three(3) times per day; the feat should be changed to the following:

Second Wind

You have learned to control your body and focus your thoughts to rid yourself of fatigue.

Requirements: Con 17+
Benefits: You can heal yourself for 1d6 * CON modifier once every 10 minutes up to a maximum of 3 times per day.


I boosted the constitution requirement in the above example as this change would make the feat considerably more powerful, and in so doing made it a fair trade due to the extreme point-expenditure to gain the feat.

Thoughts, suggestions, rotten fruit or vegetables?

[Kajae]

How is it more powerful? It looks like you just increased the CON requirement.

[TheBlankStare]

How is it more powerful? It looks like you just increased the CON requirement.

The above change makes it much more powerful. The suggestion increases the CON requirement but it also multiplies the 1d6 roll by the CON modifier.

As it is now the feat heals 1d6 plus (+) CON modifier hit points. With an 18 CON you could heal at most 10 and average 7-8 hit points. Gurtak is recommending instead that it heal 1d6 times (*) CON modifier hit points. With the suggested change you could heal at most 25 and average around 12-16 hit points.

It would make the feat quite a bit more powerful especially for those with very high CON scores. A dwarf could start with a 20 CON if he wanted to. At first level he would be healing a maximum of 30 and average about 15-20 hit points. Add a +2 CON item and it jumps to a maximum of 36 and an average of 18-24.

It would slightly reduce your reliance on a healer and healing kits/potions and probably make soloing a bit easier if it worked like that but it would also reduce the number of characters that could take it. It would pretty much be limited to dwarves and fighter types which doesn't seem to be the intent of the feat. I'd say it should probably remain the way that it is.

[ParadoxicalAnonymity]

Do keep in mind that this is a requirement for the Frenzied Berserker PrC.

A requirement of 17 Con, when someone's going for FB, I think is too steep. Pushing it to 17 is considerably subtracting from Strength for the character to build upon. I already thought the Second Wind feat was intelligent, as it's forcing someone to have at least a 15 Con, so you can't necessarily min-max in the ways usually people do (such as a starting 14 Con). Raising this up to 17 Con is going to dramatically lower the proportion they can put into Strength.

And frankly, I think it's counter-productive to the general purpose of your FBs. Strong-as-hell, and crazy as they go. Not that Con's a bad idea for them. Because it's not. But forcing them to go for a 17 Con will result in even less people going for that PrC than already do (and it's not a great deal, truth be told [most that start them don't stick with them, but there have been a handful]).

A solution, of course, is considering a wholly new feat for that last requirement on Frenzied Berserker. But that's laying a new burden at the feet of the staff.

[Kajae]

Ah, my mistake. Posted late with tired eyes.

[prismaticcrow]

The feat, as it is, is kinda weak. 1d6 + con every 10 minutes, only 3 times a day. You get more out a healing kit. My recommendation is to either increase the amount healed, or get rid of the 10 minute cooldown. Even then, it isn't that great of a feat. =/

[Bishop Cornelius]

I agree! The way it is now makes it negligable.... and not worth taking... especially for higher con types... a maximum of 14 hp doesn't make alot of difference, and is certainly not a "second wind" for a character with 380 hp...

Though I don't think we should raise the minimum... we should even lower it I think, to Prereq: 13 CON (bringing it line with the Prereq 13 Dex & Int feats), since then lower CON chars could use it it's just that those with 13 would only get the 1d6, or 14/15 CON only get 1d6 x 2, ...

I would sugguest that we could make it something like 1d4 + CON / per level... but that would make it more like a spell... but would make it scale properly with the char... and thus I actually thing having it scale with the con modifer is a much more interesting idea...

However, I don't think it could possibly replace healers... since it can only be used three times a day and not even consecutively! It certainly couldn't replace clerics/bards because we need our buffs >:-)

That's the same problem I have with the bleeding-t-death... It just doesn't really come into account at higher, or medium for that matter, levels... it's rare that a high level char will fall dying with a blow that only knocks them between -1 and -9... I would like the bleeding/death threshhold also dependant on CON (or total HP) ... but that's just me...

[cdnspr]

I gotta admit, the feat's pretty weak in its current incarnation. The requirement seems about right, but changing the healing to something like (1d6)+(2or3xCON) would make it alot more worthwhile as anything other than a prereq for berserkers.

[Silas North]

Yes, as it stands it is only really worth taking if you plan on making a Frenzied Berserker. Many would argue that given the potency of this class, they NEED an additional prerequesite.

Though I think people tend to be FAR too quick to use the O-word for a class, I can see their point considering I have seen first-hand what this class can do. Anything that can practically self-haste, deliver around 50 dmg a swing, and pack enough hp to be the equivalent of a truck IS pretty nasty and deserves a careful look at.

Still, Second Wind imo COULD use a boost. I really don't think the CON requirement should be increased unless an "Improved Second Wind" (or Third Wind I guess) is implimented. The effect in itself could stand to be tweaked. Personally, I kind of like the 1d6 x Con bonus idea WITHOUT needing any more than 15 CON. In the hands of someone with 18 CON, the most you could heal is 24hp. This is NOT a lot, yet still makes for a possible saving of healing kits and potions.

[Phantom Lamb]

Here's the PNP version:

Second Wind
General—
You may heal yourself (Constitution modifier) hit-points (minimum 1), usable once per day.

As you can see, it's been modified already. I do agree it isn't very useful as-is. I also think it isn't very useful in PNP past level 5!

[gbbishop]

What about leaving the hp boost as is and remain true to the description and add a lesser restoration effect?

Would make it so barbs would not have to take off there breastplate when resting. And give them an edge when it comes to fatigue.

Or perhaps modify the way this feat works.. perhaps it goes off automatically when you hit <0 hp? then it wouldn't a waste it would be awesome... i mean provided you don't get dropped from say 1 hp to -20 and wind up in the FEN... but hey could be cool.

[Bishop Cornelius]

On your first idea: as cool as that would be gbbishop... that's clearly not the effect intended... (about the lesser restoration refect)...

Also, on your second idea: I really, really like it! It really would be a "Second Wind" And the HP gain would be just enough to keep you fighting... after you would have fallen... If that could be implemented I think it would be tres awesome!

[Phantom Lamb]

There's a lot of feat and class improvements that we'd love to do, but we need to free up the resources for it. At the moment, we're pretty focused on more important things though. I don't want to marginalize the suggestion, but I don't think you can expect this kind of change any time soon.

[Sacred Geometry]

Second Wind is a requirement for Frenzied Berserker on Sundren, so the 17 CON requirement is a bit hefty. There are already a million and two prerequisites and restraints to prevent power building as is, so making more restraints for a below-par feat that's also a requirement for a prestige class seems unnecessary.

I think the best method would be to improve the feat to where it's an attraction to the prestige class, instead of an obstacle. A 1d10*[CON mod] heal, usable [CON mod] amount of times per day would be very nice.

[Cornuto]

I'd be more than happy to see the added pre-req for frenzied berzerker removed. Melee classes aren't so powerful that we need to worry about nerfing them further.