Evershifting Form

[gbbishop]

...and other MoMF things to consider. All suggestions made with the understanding that DEVs are very busy and working on Custom PRCs is time consuming and benefits a small number of the community. None the less I feel that consideration of these points warranted.

1. Evershift
2. Form to form shift
3. Overcoming DR

1. It is the 10th level momf ability to which i refer. It should allow me to shift unlimited times per day. Is there a reason we can't shift more than 9 times/day.

I was kinda bummed when i got to level 10 to be honest... sure i was looking forward to being a dragon but the idea that I would finally be able to shift to adapt to any situation was really intriguing.

2. Also it would be REALLY REALLY good to introduce the ability to shift from one form to another and not have to go back to original form first.

Think of this: In emegency situations, unlike every other class, MoMFs cannot use potions and they have no "oh shit button" if they drop below 1/4 hp in most combat forms the run serious risk of shifting back dead. (i lose somewhere in the neighborhood of 70 hp shifting back from giant form)

3. Could there be a way to transfer a metal quality to a shifted form?

Went to Argyle Keep... just to check it out.. found my MMoF to be SUPER ineffective. My normal damage output (which is substantial) reduced to the 0-5 range (this was vs the smith just south of the keep). I believe this is due to the daemons DR which should be coldiron or coldiron/good. Is there anyway that a shifter would have a chance at this area? I know that you can't equip anything to a shifted form... but technically my dwarf should be able to drop a coldiron great axe, shift then pick it up and fight with it. I understand game mechanichs wise this could be problematic. At least us shifters would be able to play with other 19-20s



** Moved to Suggestions --PL **

[Phantom Lamb]

I'm not sure about #1 or #2, but #3 sounds like a no-go. Druids rarely specialize in metal! Additionally, there are some areas where certain builds will shine, and some areas where they will just flop. For example, archers and dex-bulids rarely do well in the Necropolis.

[Kaeldorn]

Shifting from one form to another is mechanically impossible. And if there was a way, it'd be an absolute nightmare to make it work without endless glitches. It's a very delicate mechanic that breaks easily, I've found. Essentially, the polymorph effect would have to be re-programmed from ground zero.

Endless shifting would be a possible feature to implement, though. A check could be made on the shifting feats' spell scripts to restore uses/day if it was cast by a MoMF level 10.

[gbbishop]

thanks for the resposes.

DR penetration:

1. a wild property for enchanting.

2. creature forms that bypass DR.

I understand that there are some places were certain classes will shine and others will fall. But this is not just one or two instances, everything at 19 plus has DR 10-25 X-metal and/or X-alignment. By not allowing shifters some way to circumvent this, near epic level and epic level play becomes very difficult, more so than any other class I can think of.

1. In pnp (and I know this is not pnp) there are ways around it like by enchanting it with the wild property.

What about something like that. An enchanting recipe, it could take up on of the 3 slots and thus be balanced I think. The weapons elemental bonus damage already makes it through the shift so I dont see this as being too OP.

2. Another thought for a work around.... creatures with DR are able to bypass other creatures with the same DR. like for example a devil striking a devil would bypass The 15 silver/good because he has it too. I don't know if this is possible on sundren. Perhaps adding a few forms, that incorporate this concept or adjusting some of the existing ones would not be too hard.

---------------------

Exit strategy:

1. Few seconds before the con bonus is changed.

2. Access to potions.

1. Shifting form to form is mechanically, totally understand... what about few rounds buffer before the negative con effects kick in. so we have time to shift to something else or down a potion before meeting the Nightstalker. It would just be nice to have an exit.

Or the ability to use a potion while in form. As it stands there is way to do this. But it is extremely cumbersome. You have to first start a barter with one of your party. At which point your inventory opens. Everything is red and unusable, except for potions. perhaps command in the same screen as barter that opens your "wildling potion belt." I know from past discussions that accessing items and abilities or anything while shifted would be problematic code wise. but if the barter trick works it stands to reason this idea could too.

The class is really cool and I love playing it. But I do get frustrated with some of the drawbacks. I KNOW kael hates working shifting, I feel bad even asking. It seems like the obsidian devs just crapped it together. Despite this fact, your team was able to put this class together and that is super sweet. Just hoping to participate in the new dungeon areas with out being dead weight.

[Kaeldorn]

DR is hardcoded. You have to create a new damage type for bypassing, and then add it to all the creatures you want it to work on. That can be quite a lot of work and needs duplicate creatures, though it might be worth doing if there is time. (Zoooooork? )
What would you put the 'wild' enchant on, though? Not on your hands..

The easiest solution is probably to add some utility to shapes that come with weaponry for the job. Maybe the pixie could use a silver dagger, the frost giant a cold iron axe, that sort of thing.

The idea of potion use by shapes/animals I've always found rather iffy. Where would you get your potion from? From the potion belt that snapped when you turned into a giant? From the pockets underneath your bear coat? And if your equipment melds into your new form until you shift back, is it physically even there at all?

[gbbishop]

potion use... right well there was a wildling belt, in it, you could store a few items that remained on the outside of your shifted form. They were shifted to a format usable by your form.. I don't remember the source book so I can't help there. Most likely masters of the wild. or which ever one contained MoMF.

But for the forms like giant it would be easy the "wildling belt" would be shifted to the outside of your body and it would be a matter of grabbing and using an item from that belt. For bear form and other hand-less forms it is bit more tricky. I always saw it as clipped into the fur and the bear could reach his head around and pull the consumable from his fur and chuck it down the hatch. Perhaps the potions take on a berry-like form or I don't know... In one of the source books they talk of potions and other one use items. That they need not be you traditional glass bottle with some sort of juice inside but that they could be tiles with runes on them and their effect are triggered when they are broken. Could be something like that.

Or if the wildling belt doesnt work maybe it goes like this. If the shifter shifts himself and all gear into the new form he should be able to alter the form of some items and "keep them available" Heck I could even see the shifter uncorking what ever he shifted the cork into while it was "inside him" and letting the juice shift into his stomach.

Anyway it is tricky, but potion use would go a long way towards making the class a little less... um fragile when it comes to critical situations. Even if we need a piece of gear to pull it off.

As for where does your gear go? I still have trouble with this. When i shift into smaller forms with str. reductions I become encumbered. Some times it goes away other times it does not. So that is a bummer. I should thing that if I can become colossal and diminutive my gear should shift to the new sizes as well...

Kael, I like both suggestions you put forth on bypassing DR. Both make a lot of sense. with all the new summons perhaps there are some with DR and thus they should bypass some DRs as well. Would be cool if you were fighting golems that have adamant DR that they bust through stoneskin.. would make them hella more scary. It does sound like a ton of work though... but like you said could be worth it.

[Phantom Lamb]

I like Kael's idea of certain shapes being able to wield weapons of other metal types. Are polymorph types just creatures that I can edit?

[gbbishop]

the giant and fey forms would work best for this. It would be cool to see a few alternate giant forms as well. Storm giant(require character level 19, sonic damage bonus)? Stone giant (adamant)?
Cloud giant cl18 (silver)? Frost giant (cold iron)?

I dunno just shooting from the hip here.


OOOOH! Speaking of stone giants it would be freekin' if some of the giants had throw stone as a ranged attack! Could be a spell like ability.

[Kaeldorn]

Yes, PL. You can simply edit the polymorph creature blueprint and give it new weapons. These must keep the same resref as is used in the polymorph 2da, though. I believe most of the fey/giant forms have a sundren custom creature blueprint somewhere in the module already. If they don't, you can make a creature copy with a new resref and ask me or somebody else to fix the entry in the 2da table.

[Maevan2]

This whole discussion proves one thing: the guy who added the ability of shifting to D&D had no idea what mess he would create *sighs*

[gbbishop]

haha i totally agree maevan but well shifting was stolen lore anyway... merlin was a shifter and countless other celts had the ability so NOT including it would be a disservice to the fantasy genre... but obsidian REALLY could have done a better job with it.

[gbbishop]

Had some other thoughts that I would like to throw out there.

Special modes to represent special abilities.

Perhaps in one of the UI buttons that pops up for some of the forms there could be a function for flight or burrowing etc...

Examples:

The bat, and many other forms, can fly... they should be able to fly out of melee range.

I know NWN is not built for flying creatures. But I could see it working like this.
-player hits the fly button
-an emote pops up *The creature takes to wing flying high out of reach*
-certain bonuses and penalties are then applied.
[apply +100 AC vs. melee and touch attack]
[apply -100 to attack bonus]
[could add a shrouded visual effect]

You could still be hit by ranged spells and missile fire. and you could still use special abilities like breath weapon or spells from the pixie form.

*I could even see this applied to a custom Fly spell*

Meld with element.

Elementals can enter and travel through their element.

agian UI button in the special ability space.
[applies an effect like planeshift with out the concentration roll]

The Mindflayer already has an ability like this. Why not give it to elementals

With a DM I have done both of the above mentioned things flown over hostiles with out harm and melded into stone to travel through cave walls. Without a DM these abilities are nonexistent.

These abilities could give us shifters an exit strategy, at least with some forms.

[DM_Equinox]

A server I played on before made brilliant use of the overland map (or a reasonable approximation for NWN1) for flying. You got ported to that map, showing a few major markers of the nearby areas. You could not interact with anyone while flying obviously, except with others that happen to be flying at the time. (Aerial combat, yay)

Just brainstorming. Please don't hurt me. *scampers back under the rocks*

[gbbishop]

wow that sounds extensive. but could be cool if doable.

Was also thinking that a "fly" effect would benefit mages and angels and daemons AND shifters.