Archers and DR

[TheBrogueadier]

But! But!

*pouts, shuffles shoes awkwardly*

Sowwy.

[Redjack]

All classes have weaknesses. And individual builds can have strengths and weakness within their respective classes. You just have to figure out how to deal with each enemy type using specific plans of action.

[EndsBeginning]

I mean.. erm.. why can't you run, exactly? I mean archers are usually supposed to be at a disadvantage up close. You can use a spell or two to slow melee down or speed yourself up to get out of sticky situations.

My general problem with running and kiting is most zones aren't open, you're on narrow paths. This isn't WoW. So, if you're saying I can shamelessly exploit zoning then fine.

[Machiavelli]

Or you could... take a fighter and some other people with you! The areas aren't really meant for soloing, assuming that's what you're getting at.

[kovah]

As I've had at least one main ranged archer char I have this arogant feeling that I can talk, so...

Sundren's areas are kitable(sp?). They aren't all that wide open but I can run and my running means I load in the next zone before you do.

(ranger's ability to move faster outside) + Dash + *insert spell here* = you can kite any melee char to death all day long and even a melee char worth his salt is toast. I don't give a sh*t what your AC is. If you can't touch me and I hit you once every 3-5 rounds you're f*ing dead.

Look, if we need to focus on OverPowered's vs UnderPowered's we'd need to remove anyone who rolls a cleric that can cast beyond 3rd level. This game IS NOT balanced, and should not be, imo.

If you disagree, start your own server - recruit your own DM staff - design a completely out-of-the-box Server - get RL People to play on it. Can't do that?

Oh.

Then play the game how it's presented and, sry, but... stfu...

<3?

[GodBeastX]

In before Kovah gets infraction for starting contention!

Seriously, don't tell people to stfu... it never goes over well on forums.

[EndsBeginning]

Or you could... take a fighter and some other people with you! The areas aren't really meant for soloing, assuming that's what you're getting at.

Nope but...actually never mind. I know Sundren isn't going to change just because I want it to, I'm going to drop this issue.

[Zoberraz]

I think the easiest way to get past damage reduction for a bow user is... sort of the same you'd see for a non-power attack powerhouse (pun intended): critical hits.

As you said, EndsBeginning, we archers get many attacks - yours carry more punch than mine... but the concept still holds. If you have Improved Critical, getting 19-20 on five attacks is a possibility. If you use Manyshot, your odds of hitting or confirming are lower, but you still have more 'opportunities' to crit as well. Arrows might not have a high critical threat range, but their x3 multiplier is excellent when you do land one.

Archers are capable of dishing out an enormous amount of damage in the ideal circumstances. For me, it requires lower AC targets that happen to be my favored enemies and Manyshot - a bard buddy inspiring courage and bestowing Greater Heroism on me helps tons too!

You have it easier though - you have magic spells as an Arcane Archer... which hopefully include True Strike.

In Sundren's previous incarnation, I had a magic bow which allowed me to cast True Strike once per rest, and it was something of a trump card for me. I used it, then when on a Manyshot full attack and completely savaged my opponent - whom was a same level weapon master with very good AC gear (he was sword-and-board). The battle was brutally short and he wasn't supposed to be a pushover either.

If Lasala has True Strike on hand, then you can do it once a rest, maybe more. You can buy scrolls of True Strike and cast them too (I'd consider them well worth the price). It certainly solved the problem with a high AC opponent (cleric buffed up to demigod status) coming up into your sight. The only thing that's remotely going to slow down thier demise are mirror images and displacement magic - and that's certainly not DR.

Sure, clerics can heal themselves... but the moment you put a cleric on the defensive and force him to heal himself, you're already coming ahead because while he heals, he's not attacking and you are still shooting at him and causing damage.

In the face of HP buffer-type damage reduction like Stoneskin, Greater Stoneskin and Premonition... it's not such a severe matter: a druid with Premonition might boast DR 30/adamantite, but it's still only 10 damage points per level - which may put him on par with a warrior. A True Strike spell along with a full attack volley of arrows can pincushion him into submission - especially if you strike a critical hit that'll go through the DR buffer. We archers might be stopped cold by it... but we chew through it very quickly. Even if the wizard does have another such spell to cast, that's one defensive spell he's using while you should still be doing enough damage to occasionally hurt him through it.

Exceptions do unfortunately crop up: a cleric with Stone Body up will put up a DR 10 that's never going to be whittled away, and he's got healing spells to back it up. If you can't force a cleric into what I call a 'healing panic', then he's very likely to Battletide and rush forward to grant you the priviledge of redecorating your face with his mace.

Another exception are the opponents like golems, dragons or powerful fiends that include high AC and good DR. Those are some of the strongest opponents around - if I face against them, I try to not be alone, and avoid Manyshot to keep my accuracy as high as possible. Sometimes, my Adamantite longsword of Frost looks like the better alternative.

Speaking of which, I do not shoot in melee - especially if I'm in a group. I tend to bring my sword and shield up, and fight that way. Kiting in groups is generally not a good idea because you get further away from the people whom could help you deal with your opponents (though buying time is sometimes necessary). So, if you're a glass cannon and have no room to run, getting the shield out might make you less squishy, it might buy you some time (having some breathing room to quaff that invisibility potion when all else fails is not such a bad idea).

If you want to dwell a bit on the right ways to PvP with the nastier mages and clerics... I'm afraid that we can't really easily go toe to toe with them. I've been big on the True Strike spell advice, but truth is that it's a bit of a one trick pony deal - and you need one round to get it set up too before unleashing feathered hell upon your enemy.

Because of that, I would raise the advice given by someone else: fight on your terms. If the mage and clerics are buffed up (though it's hard ICly to actually tell, so this is a bit of a meta advice) avoid fighting. If you can, harass them - they need to remove that heavy armor to rest and if they know they are in danger with an elven archer doing hit and run on them, they might not be able to afford resting, and their spell durations might eventually run out anyways.

But seriously, that's easier said than done. Most elves don't really fight fairly or honorably so this is more a matter of windows of opportunity than anything else.

Do consider that if you do catch a mage with his pants down, it's ridiculously easy to bring him down. A cleric somewhat less so thanks to the higher HP - but then again they are still much less fearsome and unprepared - if they start spending one round warding or enhancing themselves... it might not be enough to tilt the balance back thier way.

* * *

My previous incarnation of Maia did a lot of PvP. She just did not let anyone else step over her toes and that brought her a lot of conflict, for good and for ill. Maia's also had her shares of wins and loses.

I've fought a buffed up cleric before understanding how powerful a buffed cleric should be so I understand that disappointment. I've fought a druid on my terms and managed to get a narrow win. I've fought a Dragon Disciple and managed to defeat him through preparation even though he outclassed me. I fought rogues and saw my behind handed to me after underestimating their crippling strike special ability. I came up against a Horned Devil polymorphed warlock and found myself wanting before his DR, regen and really good defenses.

I've played a high level druid and seen how much more easier and more powerful the caster classes can be in some ways.

All in all, the lesson I've drawn from that is that knowing your opponent and attacking on your terms makes all the difference. Sometimes you can't match an opponent at all, and you need to find a way to deal with him not via force of arms. Other times, it's simply better to withdraw - living instead of engaging in a lost cause is a win in itself.

As a Glass Cannon, the one thing you want to avoid is being stuck in a defensive posture where you can no longer use your mobility to get yourself out of trouble - when you have to make a stand to defend something by blocking another's way. While it might be necessary at some point, it's really something to avoid if at all possible. Don't fight on home ground - fight further ahead on a battlefield of your choosing... this at least allows you the possibility of withdrawing.

This could mean zoning... which inherently means a loss in a PvP fight if I understand Sundren's rules right. That's unfortunate, since it crimps slightly the way the guerilla-style warfare many elves prefer and I've little advice to provide on how to make up for it. However, I don't think you should have any compunction with your elven archer to run for her life - zoning - if it's to preserve her life. Especially if she's not very honorable.

It's true we archers suffer certain disadvantages, but it's a disadvantage that comes with that role in particular - one I've learned to live with the limitation thereof. Hopefully, you will manage to do the same and make the most out of your character. Who knows... you might surprise yourself

[Urithrand]

Sorry Zob... tldr

[Doubtful]

You missed out Uri,

While not brief, it is nonetheless an exquisitely worded treatise on the warp and weft of being an archer.

A much more fulfilling piece than the rather churlish prose previously submitted by other certain individuals.

Suffice to say that dear Zoberraz does their utmost to ascertain that archers are a most formidable foe when applied correctly, but will go down quicker than a 2 copper whore when used wrongly.

[kovah]

Argh... Drunk posting ftl!

Sorry.

[BedlamX]

While I haven't played an archer in a long time, I have seen some great PvP archers. Mainly Ranger/Rogues or Arcane Archers with several mage levels for certain spells.

One of the best PvP archers I ever saw was on an old server thatis now, sadly, gone. He played a wood elf ranger/rogue/shadow dancer that constantly harrassed the evil groups on the server. His sneak was out of this world and he had taken every possible bow and sneak feat he could. His greatest tactic was to set the evils to hostile, watch them buff to the hells, then just follow them around in stealth until the buffs wore off. A few hit and run attacks to try and get the casters to burn up offencive spells, then back to hiding. As long as he hid close enough, they could not rest. It took quite a while, but this let him whittle them down without taking many hits. Never underestimate the sneaking to keep an enemy from resting. It is one of the greatest tools for a guerilla fighter in the nwn2 engine.

Of course, that server did not have map travel, so zoning would not allow you to jump pretty much anywhere like Sundren does. So that would be a bit tougher here than it was there. But, if you count a zone as a loss...you still win by default

[Phantom Lamb]

Stealth has always gotten my ire in NWN2 because it was done so poorly. In tactics like the above, it's important that the stealther review the Sundren stealth rules. Mostly, don't stay in plain sight for very long. Stealth and even HIPS are not an excuse to stand in an open area to spy or set up an attack. Some form of cover must be used for RP reasons--go stand behind a tree

http://www.sundren.org/wiki/index.ph...=Rules#Stealth

[AnnyMouse]

I heard it mentioned in this thread, but I can't see it on the wiki. What are the changes made to the Imbue Arrow skill?

edit: nevermind, misread "Flame Arrow" in the original post ^.^;

[BedlamX]

Yeah...that old server had pretty much the same "realistic stealth" rules. They also had plenty of hidable locations in almost every zone. Follow from a short distance, move cover to cover, and keep them in your sight. That is all it takes to keep an enemy force from resting to heal or regain spells. Much like night attacks in the real world. They don't have to do much damage, just keep the enemy on edge and unable to rest. Then pound them while they are weary and worn out. Basic guerilla tactics.