appropriatly adjust cost for scroll creation.

[gbbishop]

I have come to conclude that there is something wrong with the economics involved in scroll creation.

okay so the theory behind "most" economic systems that involve goods and services follow this formula..

Labor + materials X markup = cost to the consumer.

If you have the materials and have the skill to create something. I stands to reason that making some item yourself avoids the markup and should be less costly that buying it from someone else.... right?

am I missing something? I am not an econ guru so maybe I am wrong.

Check this.

Scroll of shield cost: from vendor v. ho'made. 75 v. 133.
vendor is quite a bit less.....

Scroll of shield cost at thayan enclave:
~75 stags. (varied by your appraise)

cost to create scroll of shield ones ownself:
8 stag for a blanks scroll
125! stag for... inks? pens?

133 stag grand total!

So it costs about 75% more for a wizard to make his own scroll. Plus he had to spend the time to make it (~10gp values)
so really 143 stags.

This simply should not be. It makes NO sense.

I have tried to justify it but I can't.

Let us say they are charging triple key for ink. (triple key is usually reserved for specialty item jewelry or artisan work high end inks might fall into this catagory)

this would put the wholesale cost of said inks at... 41 stag (production cost would most likely be 80% of this. as whole sale makes up for retail mark up with volume, but what ever)

plus 3 stag for blank scroll (assuming the vendor gets them at wholesale as well.) puts there cost for materials only (labor not factored in) at 44 stag.

in this case the 75 stag is only a 70% mark up... not a 300% mark up like the ink and the blank scroll....

and 70% mark up would never cover both overhead (be it the enclave or barnyard stall at the tradepost.) AND labor!

70% puts profit at 29 stag per scroll. Less what ever they pay the craftsman. a first level spell (with no material comp or xp cost) costs 10gpXcasterlevel. so 10 paid out to a first level scrub. That Leaves 19 stag gross profit. ie. before taxes and operation costs or licensing fees...

So any operation selling scrolls and the like, would most likely be in the RED, big time. Any wise business would shut down any such divisions as not profitable ASAP. unless they are Waltons! and if that is the case... well it's just wrong not to mention counter productive to the community based economy which sundren seems to be striving for.

Regardless something is out of place. The numbers are off. Either the shops are undercharging or the pc is being overcharged.

I realize this is a nwn thing and not a sundren thing but with the over haul of the crafting system perhaps scrolls, wands and staffs could be seen to as well.

Following are some of the resources I used in my research.

This list is taken from 3.5 srd and shows the cost for spellcasting services.

1-add cost of material components 1/10 cost of foci and 5gp/xpcost.

Spell, 0-level Caster level x5 gp1 Spell, 1st-level Caster level x10 gp1 Spell, 2nd-level Caster level x20 gp1 Spell, 3rd-level Caster level x30 gp1 Spell, 4th-level Caster level x40 gp1 Spell, 5th-level Caster level x50 gp1 Spell, 6th-level Caster level x60 gp1 Spell, 7th-level Caster level x70 gp1 Spell, 8th-level Caster level x80 gp1 Spell, 9th-level Caster level x90 gp1

according to the dm guide shield scroll has a market value of 25gp.

scribe scroll (as per srd)

You can create a scroll of any spell that you know. Scribing a scroll takes one day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. The base price of a scroll is its spell level × its caster level × 25 gp. To scribe a scroll, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one-half of this base price.
Any scroll that stores a spell with a costly material component or an XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. In addition to the costs derived from the base price, you must expend the material component or pay the XP when scribing the scroll.



so based on this the cost to scribe a shield scroll should be. BP 25


half that for gp = 12.5 (round up to 13)
and bp/25 = 1xp.


this formula then makes sense. it costs 18gp (13 + 5 for the 1xp)


18 gets marked up to 25 for market value.


Regardless the cost according to srd 18 is a far cry from the 133 of nwn.


I won't even try to figure out why keen edge is 700+ stag.... and now that I have wasted a rediculous amount of time on this I will appologize to any who read through this far for wasting their time.

[Doubtful]

I'm sure that one of the dev team will be able to explain it better than I can, but the costs for scrolls are (atleast to my understanding) set by the game engine itself and therefore not easily changed (I could be wrong!)

Scroll and wand creation can be an expensive pass time, but it can also be fairly useful. the costs for creation are worked out as follows:

The cost to scribe a scroll in NWN2 is equal to Caster Level * Spell Level * 25 gp. Level 0 spells cost half as much as a Level 1 spell. However, in the formula, Caster Level is NOT the character's caster level but the resulting caster level of the scroll to be created. For example, a scroll of Bless Weapon always has a caster level of 17. As such, it costs 17 * 1 * 25 = 425 gp to make.

(from nwn2 wiki)

Even the in game description of the Scribe Scroll feat acknowledges it may be a bit pricey

Creating a scroll costs gold pieces based on the relative power of the spell. Scrolls containing first level spells can cost hundreds of gold pieces while those made with higher level spells can cost several thousand.

Hopefully that's at least answered your question as to why it's pricey.

[Zorkaplex]

I am pretty sure that Doubtful is correct. There is a very slim chance that you can modify those values but not without the high chance of messing up your game.

[grant]

I have come to conclude that there is something wrong with the economics involved in scroll creation.

[snip]

am I missing something? I am not an econ guru so maybe I am wrong.

[snip]

2 other possible reasons.

Besides what else has been mentioned.... the PC can only buy inks pens for one scroll at a time. While the scroll vendors can buy inks and pens in bulk, you do not need machine mass production to enjoy the benefits of the "economy of scale".

Scrolls written by mages are really only for teaching, or emergency use only. That in itself is another reason for their expense. It could be that scroll vendors are just resellers of "found" scrolls and not writers at all.

The third and most likely reason: the developers slapped the system together with no thought to reason.

[gbbishop]

well what about not changing the numbers but putting together a recipe like everything else crafty on sundren.

example:

scroll of shield.

1 parchment/blank scroll. (could be made with woodworking)
2 magician's ink (could be an alchemy recipe)

shield spell cast and some amount of gold something more appropriate for example the 1/2 BP cost in gold that is suggested by the SRD. Even with the add on of 5gp for each xp cost that the nwn sytem does not account for. It would still be more reasonable I think. Especially if the cost of parchment and ink were subtracted from this cost.

I would be happy to write up the necessary recipes for DEVs in this case.

Anyway the issue seems to be that nwn designers saw BP in the SRD and thought that was the GP price. which makes creating scrolls twice as costly.

to respond to grant.

I accounted for wholesale materials being available to large scale operations (thayan encl) so that can't be it.

I disagree that scrolls are merely for teaching and emergency. They are the bread and butter of a well prepared spell caster.


eh maybe it doesn't matter... I guess walmart is the way to go if you DON'T want to support a local economy.

[GodBeastX]

The reason the store has cheaper prices is because the item base price for a scroll is static and has nothing to do with the scribe formula and everything to do with base-item & the spell cast property.

I agree 100% that the store price should reflect scribe price, but marking up every scroll in the game would be utter and complete hell. The alternative is to code a custom scribe system, which is possible, but also a bunch of work

[thaelis]

It's pretty ridiculous I agree, but we have survived so far without a working scroll crafting system and will continue to do so.

Maybe just delete the feat and replace it with something functional like a feat which gives you +2 Spellcraft and Knowledge Arcana to reflect their scholarly nature.

[GodBeastX]

No. Scribing still has uses, especially for scrolls not in stores.

[Timmerfee]

Mages don't get many freebie spells from levelling up - wizards scribing and exchanging scrolls is vital to filling up the old spellbook.

I'd say wand crafting - not scroll crafting is the skill which needs to be looked at. A wand of fireball apparently costs 50k to make. I've never actually had enough money to test this out - nor the inclination to so waste 50,000 stags.

[gbbishop]

ha! yeah i didn't touch on wands.. and staffs? oh man. wtf. anyway seriously bummed that i took create wand as a feat...

pretty usesless when you have 200 stags in yer pocket.

anyway I would think it possible to rewrite the feat/s... but then again perhaps wizards are too powerful already... sigh. no good answer.

[rustediron]

I'm always in agreement for cheaper wandmaking costs

As it is, however, craft wand is most certainly not a useless feat, as I think anyone who's seen Val may agree :P

[gbbishop]

Maybe just delete the feat and replace it with something functional like a feat which gives you +2 Spellcraft and Knowledge Arcana to reflect their scholarly nature.

and how is THAT a useful feat... besides it probably already exists in that long list of skill boost feats I never look at.

The post was about the economic "oops" in the NWN code. Where BP appears to have been mistaken for GP cost.

GBX raises a huge point here. That changing prices globally would be nothing short of a monumental undertaking.

I was just hoping to brainstorm a solution to the disparity. Scribe Scroll should not be eliminated, it is the bread and butter of wizardry.

[Usurper]

The bad thing about the wand feat is that if a cleric makes a wand,only clerics can use it or those with a really high UMD..I made a wand of undeath and it was like 6k to make I think.

[rustediron]

High UMD + friends to scribe scrolls + wandmaking feat + reasonable sum of money works quite well, I've found