Challange ratings :(

[Azulfae]

At first i thought getting rid of these would be a great idea.

Many Servers I played on in NWN1 you could see how many levels people where when you logged onto the servers and it was a massive source of metagaming with regards to PvP.

In Sundren though there doesn't seem to be a massive PvP culture and when there is it seems quite mature and well done.

Getting rid of the challange ratings on character examination has only achieved one thing since the 1.23 patch and that is to make partying up for various level groups horrendously full of OOC chat.

Before you could want to do, lets say, the ogre caves and you just had to look for people with a near enough challange rating to your own and the RP bit was smooth.

Now it's all, //sorry bud i'm uber

or //maybe in a few levels.

There are no real IC reasons to say no so it all goes ooc and really lame.



I actually think they made the game run smoother.

[Kaeldorn]

In case of lower levels, it's actually very much IC to state they'd rather not meddle with opponents of such a caliber due to them standing powerless against them.

But for higher levels I'm inclined to agree, partially. Especially if you're the generally helpful sort, you almost need to come up with a lame excuse not to come along, even when knowing you could possibly make the difference between life and death. Still, it has been like that ever since rules came to stop higher levels from fighting in lower level zones. The CR removal changed nothing.

So.. all it really takes is making up some IC excuse (however lame it may be) not to come along. OOC chat should not be necessary at all.

Then again, that's coming from someone who still tends to refuse to arrange meeting places with people through /tells and seek out logical NPC's to inquire of someone's whereabouts (which probably costs some RP opportunities). I might not be the voice of the community in this regard

[Doubtful]

Before you could want to do, lets say, the ogre caves and you just had to look for people with a near enough challange rating to your own and the RP bit was smooth.

Now it's all, //sorry bud i'm uber

or //maybe in a few levels.

There are no real IC reasons to say no so it all goes ooc and really lame.



I actually think they made the game run smoother.

This makes me sad on the inside.

It seems perfectly IC for someone who'd get slaughtered to say stuff like:
"Ogres? Hah! Fat chance, I like my skin where it is thank you!"
or
"Those damn things in the Viridale? I've heard enough stories about them to keep clear. You can count me well out"
or so on..

For those who can kill ogres in their sleep there's plenty of lame excuses:
"Don't want to stir up trouble in the Viridale", "Ogres? Lad don't waste my time", "I'll leave the ogres to you sir, dealing with such vermin is far below a gentleman of my calibre"

Doing it OOC stinks of lazyness and a slovenly attitude.

[The Almight Red]

Well, I think Kaeldorn hit it on the nail, however. There is not always an obvious excuse for the altruistic do-gooder when he somehow has to turn down going to the den of ogres, because he's way over the challenge rating of everyone else.

Are there excuses you could give? Sure. But they don't always make the most sense.

Do-gooder sits at the campfire at Exigo Trading Post, bunch of people arrive. They all clamour for the individual's help. But do-gooder is far too high of level. He looks at his watch, whistling. "Woooo... look at the time. I've gotta jet. Got a hair appointment." So, everyone nods their heads and they move on.

But do-gooder actually just sits back down on the bench, because he really didn't have anything to do. This is just an example that IC excuses aren't always sensical, as Kaeldorn admitted. Sometimes it's going to take a really lame excuse.

I think it's a bit harsh to call people lazy, considering that not all characters can give the excuses you suggested, nor even a reasonable excuse in all situations.

Also, I wanted to point out that in the Dead Horses topic, the staff could probably remove #6. It appears it is now moot! Hooray!

[Konchuu]

I think the pros for the removal of CR rating far outweighs the cons. Before when someone picked a fight you often immediately knew who would win, and its hard to ignore such knowledge even when you try.

And as for excuses you make them up all the time. Like when you have to log out at a really bad time...

[The Almight Red]

I honestly have to agree. I know I haven't been on this server long, but the CR thing has plagued practically every server. It's nice when you have literally no clue what the 'power level' is of other people.

At least, not someone so fresh as myself. I don't know who's well established, and who's not. So I have to remain cautious at all times. Which is how I'd like to think it should be.

I never liked the concept of someone hiding from everyone for 15 levels and then they suddenly becoming the overbearing asshole, because they finally know they can kick around all the newbies.

[KimKandor]

I never liked the concept of someone hiding from everyone for 15 levels and then they suddenly becoming the overbearing asshole, because they finally know they can kick around all the newbies.

This has plagued so many servers it's not even funny. I believe it plagues them all and but for the grace of some people isn't overbearing on the better servers. CR ratings between players I don't like at all, between players and monsters is sometimes a usefull thing, unless you intend to kill the players always. I realise no one should travel alone, but there is not always people with any foreknowledge to ask "whats out in those woods, or in the cave".

[DireBadgerEntersRage]

I realise no one should travel alone, but there is not always people with any foreknowledge to ask "whats out in those woods, or in the cave".

Then what would a sensible person who values his life do? Go into that cave of unknown dangers anyways or find out what's in there first through scouting or more knowledgeable people? I don't see why the risk of death should be taken out of the equation. Remember that there were people who had to fight those same monsters for the first time ever, and while CR, still present back then, was somewhat of a help, they still had to find out the hard way whether they could beat those monsters at that level or not, and they didn't have anyone to ask about it beforehand. So why should it be easier for the new players now than it was then?


Disclaimer: I was not one of aforementioned people, so I can only make an educated guess of how things were back at the dawn of Sundren.

[Fezzik]

I don't really see any problem with removing the CR ratings perse, but the problem is that most people don't bother writing what their char looks like, is carrying and so forth in their descriptions...

eg.
Joe walks into the campfire and looks around and says "Hey, anyone want to go kill goblins with me?" He's looked at everyone's description and it either says something like "The most beautiful person you've ever seen with blue striking eyes...." or "Not much is known about your history...." or " ". So he asks the questions and gets responses like // I'm 15th level don't bother me (in polite terms) or the like...

Now, if Joe had gone into the camp and looked at everyones description and they said something like "Has a glowing blade of adamantine on his back with mithral fullplate sticking out of his backpack"; "wears the finest leather armour that seems to shimer his form from view" or stuff like that, he's probably go... Oh, well, I guess maybe I should talk to the guy with the crappy leather armour and the rusted shortsword instead of those people...

I viewed the CR rating of someone in lieu of these things when it was needed. If the CR rating is gone, something ICly should replace it like that bluff - sense motive check. No newbie adventurer in his or her right mind (I stress RIGHT mind! ) is going to try to pick a fight with the guy in the black eerie glowing fullplate with the two handed sword with glowing mystical runes all over it, but the guy in the rusty old tin can with the notched longsword looking like it's ready to fall apart? Maybe!

[Jonel]

*shrugs* personally I like the change, before it was way to easy to see who could kick my skinny little butt and who couldn't......Now i just pick fights with who ever(as long as its IC), even our lord and master Foamy. As for the excuses, none are Lame as long as they are RPed IC, its the ones that are OOC that are lame.

Love,
Syne

[Iso]

Let's say hello to Billy the Paladin. Hello Billy!

Billy is actually not just a Paladin, but he's a little known Epic-leveled champion of all that is good and holy in the universe.

What's this? Billy has a problem! A bunch of level 4 adventurers are asking him for help! Uh oh Billy.

What do YOU think Billy should do?

Being the wise champion of light that he is, Billy understands that these seasoned adventurers are probably a force to be reckoned with, however, everyone needs to be challenged every once in a while! Allowing these fine adventurers to make their own way through the world without his assistance will surely help them to grow both in their own wisdom and experience.

So, Billy decides the best way he can help is to give them some advice, "Do your best," he says! "I have faith you will face your trials with bravery and courage!" With that, Billy casts Bless on our fine young adventurers and sends them on their way.

It's a good thing Billy did, too! It seems a dracolich is attacking Sestra! Silly dracoliches, when will they ever learn?

[grant]

Sundren is my first NWN2 multiplayer experience, so I still remember certain things.

1. Newbies have NO idea what the creatures are like and partying up does not solve that problem unless you get someone experienced working on new character in the party.

2. Level is not an adequate comparison, classes are not balanced against each other nor are they balanced internally.

Take a "Character" verses a "Specialist" fighter.

The Character mixes his points, takes feats that increases skills as often as combat ability.

The Specialist takes weapon/defense feats, points are put into the combat skills Parry, Taunt, Tumble etc.

As level goes up the CR based on that level rapidly becomes meaningless. Sure the Character has nice bluff, diplomacy, and appraise skills but will soon stand no chance against the Specialist when facing them 1 on 1 even if they get a few levels on them.

3. Instead of discrete CR checking people will be filling the conversational landscape with sense motive vs bluff rolls.

4. Making bluff a passive response defeats roll playing as well. How are you going to implement an active case by case choice, to look more/less/as tough as you are.

[DireBadgerEntersRage]

4. Making bluff a passive response defeats roll playing as well. How are you going to implement an active case by case choice, to look more/less/as tough as you are.

While a little OOC, I think that thanks to our changeable descriptions we can all put something like "Sense Motive DC X" there for anyone who wants to assess your misleading self, or "Spot DC X" for someone who is concealing a dagger in his boot and wants to give others a chance to notice, "Decipher Script? DC X" for the wizard you meet to identify your devil-worshipping tattoo. This way it's all totally optional; if you want Sense Motive vs Bluff (and what not) in your life, you can have it, if you don't, you can just ignore it. If you want to have a deceiving appearance, you can have it, if you don't, just make a regular description of how you really are and call it day.

[kovah]

Based on this thread I've updated the Bio on both of my characters. That being said though, when you do join a group with someone their HP, although metagaming, can be a quick indication of their level. This is not always the case but it's certainly one other thing to keep in mind.

[Azulfae]

Well this all seems fair enough. People prefer not having the CR there. I can live with that, but n00bs wanting juggra to help them kill a goblin chief are going to have to get used to him needing a poo.