Sense Motive Roll To Determine Opponents CR

[Delzoun]

With the removal of the over used CR display on peoples examine I wanted to suggest we put this D&D system from 3.5ed Complete Adventurer. It would provide a use for the skill in typical gameplay and give more use to the skill in general.

Sense Motive

"To Assess an Opponent"

The check is made vs the opponent's Bluff check. To attempt this he must be visible to you, and within 30feet. If you have seen the opponent in combat you cain a +2 circumstance bonus on the check. Beating the opponent's Bluff check will narrow the catagory to two of the 5 potential categories, where a Sense Motive 10 or more than the opponent's bluff will result in one result.

By contrast, if the targets buff result equals or slightly exceeds your sense motive check result you gain no usefull information. If the targets Bluff exceeds your sense motive check result by 5 or more, you may (at the dm's option) gain a false impression, believing your opponent to being much stronger or weaker than he really is (equal chance of either). If the Targets Bluff Check result exceeds your sense motive reult by 10 or more, your assessment is off by atleast 2 categgories (for example a dire threat could be considered a fair fight)

Opponent's CR-----------------------------Assessment of Oponent
4 or more less than your level/HD ----------- A pushover
1,2,or 3 less than your level/HD ------------ Easy
Equal to your Level/HD -------------------- A fair Fight
Equal to your level/HD Plus 1,2 or 3 -------- A tough Challenge
Exceeds your level/HD by 4 or more ------- A dire threat
_-----------------------------------------------

EDIT: I reviewed the book and added in the bluff side of the checks as well. I still shortened it to save typing, but it is intact as 3.5 shows it.

[Supreme Taco]

I support this idea entirely without wanting to change or suggest any difference.

[Phantom Lamb]

I'm not sure Sense Motive is the right skill. Perhaps a straight wisdom check plus 1/2 your level?

*edit* Sorry, I didn't see the part about it being from 3.5 officially. Strange!

[DireBadgerEntersRage]

This sounds interesting! Applying that to PCs, I have had a character concept that was about misleading behaviour and concealment of true strengths combined in Bluff skills, apart from your usual lies; so this sounds like a good way to actually bring this to life.

[Vala Rift]

Same.

Perhaps you could also use the Survival skill at a reduced chance to succeed.

[Delzoun]

I'm not sure Sense Motive is the right skill. Perhaps a straight wisdom check plus 1/2 your level?

*edit* Sorry, I didn't see the part about it being from 3.5 officially. Strange!

Yup I'll see about quoting the whole system since as I review it here in the book i might have left some out due to its lengthy nature.. sec its on page 102 of Complete Adventurer 3.5ed

[Kaeldorn]

Sense motive is much broader than just seeing through lies and such. It actually also covers sensing that 'something is up' from someone's general demeanour regardless of if he's telling the truth, notice the effects of charm/domination spells and several other uses including this one.

[grant]

Something must be done. I frequently used the CR to determine if I would adventure with some one... it may be out of character but I see no reason for my PC to be invited to certain death by a higher level PC who is up to the challenge.

Conversely I see no reason to invite someone who is easy or effortless on a trip. A large party makes little difference when some who has no business being there gets separated from the group, or singled out by the enemy. Sure a bunch of lower levels traveling with you will boost the experience the higher levels get but doing that deliberately is OOC too.

[Lothoir]

I also like this. We'll need a way for the bluffer to choose to 'bluff high' 'bluff low' or not bluff though.

[Saulus]

There was a reason for crs to be disabled: metagaming. The reasons I see here are in favour of...

We will see if anything warrants a change. Do not expect how crs work to change anytime soon.

[GodBeastX]

I agree with Saulus. I see nothing needed for CR.

As for partying try the following:

A) Getting to know the person's strengths/weaknesses
B) Asking with "I'm going to do battle here, who's up for the challenge?"
C) Stalking people and see where they go

I know seeing CR makes it easier, but not seeing it makes it interesting.

[Delzoun]

There was a reason for crs to be disabled: metagaming. The reasons I see here are in favour of...

We will see if anything warrants a change. Do not expect how crs work to change anytime soon.

The only one I saw who desired to use the modified CR system for any sort of real meta was Grant. The others wanted it for IC reasons as I'd hope most would.

I think it would be a good legitimate IC way for your pc to determine the threat of a foe. It would also provide those with high bluffs, a chance to befuddle the goodies into either thinking they're too tough to tangle with, or that they're too weak to be considered a threat, and leave thier back turned. Its not like the old system where it required no roleplay, only an ooc click/examine. This way u roll sense motive like you would any challenging skill, it rolls vs the opponents bluff and you get a return message. The opponent would see that you made the roll, and that you seem to be eyeing them so its not nearly as ooc as before, and it even requires a skill to use it, and if you use it with little skill it gives a variety of answers.

I figured since it was official D&D 3.5 it might be a nice IC way to return some limited ammount of the CR function to the game.

[Deathevn]

It is great from a player perspective, but potentaily It could be dangerous to thoes that dont know the lands, especaily new players. The viridale forest has a very wide veriety of foes to face, some being fairly easy and some being downright party killing at the level you can get there. Perhaps you could post some sort of IC warning signs near the orcs and ogres, so we dont see to many younglins rushing to their death?:-) I think it may just be a bit daunting with the high cost of death on Sundren and the remeberence that it isnt solid Pnp where you have more evasive options and its harder to get caught in a " no chance of survival" situation

as a side note, I find it an excelent choice on a PC to PC standpoint.

[grant]

I admit it is metagaming, but it is also the only way to asses another PC or NPC as things stand now.

However with its removal, there is now NO way to do this short of OOC asking for level or advice. I do not mind its removal but something should have replaced it, now there is just a void.

As another said, and I agree, the death cost is extremely high in Sundren and following others can be OOC and just dangerous.

Many PC's should feel no reason to rescue a stalker from something that spawns to close to the stalker or even just IC killing them for stalking in the first place.

[gbbishop]

i didn't get that last part grant... but outside of hints allowed by SM countered by bluff... i never liked the old click to see there power system. i am glad it is gone. but delzoun has a great idea. a bunch of the source books in 3.5 tried to add utility to the social skills to give them a little more chutzpah! i like this.

death has another good point as well... wandering about can be deadly with little to no warning. in pnp you have many more "outs"... i mean heck you cant even take a double move to disengage safely. you want to run they get an AO. a dire bear in the virdale can easily drub even some 12th levels if they are unprepared. granted if a dire bear attacked you... good luck out running it...

i think that an having an action like retreat/withdraw... would be awesome. something that mechanics wise would equate to a full round action to disengage then allow you to move away from your attacker at a "full run" so your enemy cannot get their AO every round while you try to get the F out. this string of AO is totally unrealistic and never happens in pnp.

okay well that was perhaps a BIT off topic... sorry for the ramble.