A question on a Warlocks Morality

[CainSF]

To begin with I almost wish we did the same thing with Warlocks as we do with ECL races, which is to say, restrict them. I'm just waiting for the DMs to one day take advantage of the fact there are so many of somethign that is suposed to be rare, and maybe do a quest where a Demon or Devil rips its way into Sundren from all the built up dark eldric power that is spread around by the Warlocks.


As for a reason for the evil or chaotic alignment look at it this way. People arn't just sending out these eldric blasts, which generaly have an origanal source from the lower planes, but they also training themselves to bring out these powers even more. Considering most beliefs of those who would willingly weild powers like those one is essentialy going about doing whatever they are doing in thier own way (aka chaotic.).

I'm not really sure what kind of rational a non chaotic character might have for training such powers if they are not evil other then to control them so they don't hurt anyone, in which case only one level would really be needed. (if even that)

[undeadsteak]

Uhm, whats to say people cant control those powers n use em for good? Its like asking a sorccerer not to use his power. *Shrug.* How does using such power simply name one "Chaotic."?

[Lothoir]

To begin with I almost wish we did the same thing with Warlocks as we do with ECL races, which is to say, restrict them. I'm just waiting for the DMs to one day take advantage of the fact there are so many of somethign that is suposed to be rare, and maybe do a quest where a Demon or Devil rips its way into Sundren from all the built up dark eldric power that is spread around by the Warlocks.

I have to say this sounds really awesome and could be made even more awesome by a gradual build up plot. Maybe even for each warlock over a certain threshold on the statistics page a different thing could happen, or a portal could open somewhere else.

This could be a whole hell of a lot of fun.

[CainSF]

Uhm, whats to say people cant control those powers n use em for good? Its like asking a sorccerer not to use his power. *Shrug.* How does using such power simply name one "Chaotic."?

Ok let me put it this way. Magic that is draconic in origin (I.E. sorcerers) is not really looked down apon by the majority of most societies, religions, and so on. Magic that originates from the denizens of the lower planes however would most likely be frowned apon by most societies or religions of what might be considered good or neutral alignment because of the implied 'evilness' of its nature. A person who works within those societies would be going agaisnt some social rules by tapping into such magics. (It falls into the 'a person who does it thier own way' catagory of chaotic.) For people in those societies, expecialy for those with strong superstitions this might be compaired to something like using torture to gain information that would be used for a good cause like stoping a curse cast by the person being tortured. Its a bit exesive but look at how some christian people might consider satanics wether they do 'evil' or not.
Really this is just a way of looking at it because the alignment system doesn't take into account more complex individuals who might have thier own codes but are slightly off from the majority.

[undeadsteak]

All right, but i dont get how if somone starts doing lawfully aligned stuff, they are immeditally shut off from contiuning that path.. I really think alignment restrictions are simply stupid.

[Lothoir]

Because they will find it too difficult to continue in their current path if their mentality changes. And Alignment is mentality in many respects. Take monks, it requires strict, unwavering discipline to focus your chi and all that other secret stuff monks do. Same with barbarians, you have to be a free, chaotic spirit to fully embrace the philosophy of being a barbarian. In a few ways it doesn't make sense, but some things in life don't make sense, and then there's the added component of magic that completely changes things.

In regards to warlocks, they tap a font of dark and evil power comes from the Abyss itself, demons are chaotic evil incarnate. To be able to not only tap, but effectively control and hone that power (leveling up) requires something. In the case of Dungeons and Dragons, it requires a chaotic or evil alignment/mentality. And yes, devils are lawful evil incarnate so you could apply what I said to them and ask about lawful good warlocks, but that just sound weird.

Becoming neutral, or lawful, or even non-chaotic-evil, represents a change in thinking for your character, and part of that change is represented by your bar to some classes. Maybe you don't like it or understand it, but it somehow makes perfect sense in Dungeons & Dragons so just try and figure out why.

If you want to use a real world example take science, physics or chemistry really. There are certain universal rules, we don't know all of them and can't pretend to, but they shape the universe.

For some unexplainable reason large masses tend to attract other masses. We've theories about causing deressions in space-time and having object roll in to them, but that raises more questions, why don't they float instead of fall in?

Same thing with Forgotten Realms/Dungeons and Dragons. You can not be a lawful good warlock, or a lawful evil druid, or a chaotic neutral monk.

Why? Who knows, make a theory and use it as part of your character.

[Ouroboros]

Why? Who knows, make a theory and use it as part of your character.

I should make a Male Human Wizard called "Sigmund Freud" and have him Psychoanalyze everyone he meets.

[Satoshi]

I'm just waiting for the DMs to one day take advantage of the fact there are so many of somethign that is suposed to be rare, and maybe do a quest where a Demon or Devil rips its way into Sundren from all the built up dark eldric power that is spread around by the Warlocks.

I wonder if anyone has met up with a certain little imp, yet. <3 Oh, not to mention what politics are occuring where a single devil is...

[GodBeastX]

Uhm, whats to say people cant control those powers n use em for good? Its like asking a sorccerer not to use his power. *Shrug.* How does using such power simply name one "Chaotic."?

You're thinking of end justifies the means, which is kind of Evil.

"Yeah, I totally am using devils and demons for good!"

I don't think that makes you L/G

[Raksha]

Part of what makes a paladin (lawful good) a paladin, especially in the FRverse, is that he acknowledges that for many things, the ends cannot and never will justify the means -- that making a bargain with a devil is an evil act, and that sacrificing souls for the "greater good" is not an act consistent with upholding good.

Now, a chaotic good person would certainly reason that making deals with devils to protect what was important to him or her would be worthwhile, especially if the deals could be subverted or broken.

Good luck with that, though...

[Nightwish]

(Sorry for being late) All Warlocks are eventually Evil, or they are not Warlocks.

1. Warlocks trade their souls to use another's power. This is inherently evil as it embodies all that is lazy, impatient, selfish, and greedy.
2. Warlocks sell their souls almost exclusively to Evil beings. The power they channel is thus inherently Evil.
3. No person can remain Good and a Warlock forever. The two cannot progress in tandem. Would a Celestial allow their powers to be used for Evil? No, the opposite applies as well.
4. The more power a person can channel, the more of their soul a Demon/Devil owns. Therefore, the more powerful you become, they more that Demon/Devil owns you. Then you're f****d.

As a Wizard, my opinnion of Warlocks is very low.

In short, to me Warlocks are lazy, short-sighted, fools who were too incompitent to use The Weave. He generally address them as children if not simply writing them off completely, and rarely uses their names; instead calling them things like "hallow one", "husk", or something simularly insulting.

He also sees it as a bad deal. Even Liches don't even sell their souls. One can gain MUCH greater power without gambling off something so absolutely important. They also make his life as a Wizard much harder due to the associations they bring. I could go on, but you get the picture.

[Ithildin]

1. Warlocks trade their souls to use another's power. This is inherently evil as it embodies all that is lazy, impatient, selfish, and greedy.
2. Warlocks sell their souls almost exclusively to Evil beings. The power they channel is thus inherently Evil.
3. No person can remain Good and a Warlock forever. The two cannot progress in tandem. Would a Celestial allow their powers to be used for Evil? No, the opposite applies as well.
4. The more power a person can channel, the more of their soul a Demon/Devil owns. Therefore, the more powerful you become, they more that Demon/Devil owns you. Then you're f****d.

As a Wizard, my opinnion of Warlocks is very low.

In short, to me Warlocks are lazy, short-sighted, fools who were too incompitent to use The Weave. He generally address them as children if not simply writing them off completely, and rarely uses their names; instead calling them things like "hallow one", "husk", or something simularly insulting.

He also sees it as a bad deal. Even Liches don't even sell their souls. One can gain MUCH greater power without gambling off something so absolutely important. They also make his life as a Wizard much harder due to the associations they bring. I could go on, but you get the picture.

Got some proof to support any of these claims you made? The description of warlocks itself proves you wrong, as stated earlier the description implies MOST warlocks are born with the power in them already from a supernatural bloodline such as a person who has a bit of demon blood in them like a tiefling, just the traits aren't running as strong. Read back a few pages or look at the warlock's description and you will see it uses phrases like "born of a supernatural bloodline" and "innate magical power" which again is something you are born with.

They have the option of being chaotic good which shows they aren't forced to be evil even if the general view of them is that they are. Not one thing I have read on the warlock give your claims any truth at all.

[nutranurse]

Ugh! People! Let us agree on one thing:
Warlocks, for the most part, are extremely evil. It is common sense!
+If I sell my soul to some greater-evil power, I am evil myself. Soul-for-power is generally considered an evil act, anywhere. More so in Faerun because there is actual proof that there is an afterlife
+If somewhere down the line one of my ancestors sold his/her soul for power and it was passed through the bloodline, it should be treated as a curse (I.E. Kelevmor was a rather good guy, but due to his family curse he had to be a cold mercenary. Same should go for a Warlock: If a newborn babe gets the abyssal/infernal power, chances are they are cursed to be evil *and the chances are even greater because their souls are not strong enough to resist the evil calls of a demon/devil*)
Sure there is that .01% which are just so flipping good that they resist the infernal/abyssal taint, but once again that is a tiny percent. And it is not represented on the server at all.
Which is why I highly suggest that the Devs make Warlocks application only..

[Ithildin]

Nah I'm not going to agree on that, you aren't born evil. The view on Tieflings by the common people are they are evil same as the view on Warlocks, but likely many of them are some form of neutral rather then being completely evil. Also the "taint" is the part that makes them chaotic, all demons are chaotic alignment thats why a warlocks is forced to be chaotic because of the tainted blood.

Really all most people are posting about warlocks are their own views they decided on themselves which is fine and all but technically they are only opinions without any real backing. A new born Tiefling isn't evil because it has demon/devil blood more then likey the way they are treated is what determined their ways. As long as the warlock isn't found using their power in public while growing up they likely wouldn't be shunned by anyone to have it affect their ways. Which is likely why they allow chaotic good and neutral warlocks.

A blackguard however is someone who made a pact with a demon/devil which may have involved selling their souls. Perhaps some of your are thinking they are the same thing?

This has been argued a lot though, all you make your own opinions on it and I'll have mine.

[nutranurse]

Nah I'm not going to agree on that, you aren't born evil. The view on Tieflings by the common people are they are evil same as the view on Warlocks, but likely many of them are some form of neutral rather then being completely evil. Also the "taint" is the part that makes them chaotic, all demons are chaotic alignment thats why a warlocks is forced to be chaotic because of the tainted blood.

Really all most people are posting about warlocks are their own views they decided on themselves which is fine and all but technically they are only opinions without any real backing. A new born Tiefling isn't evil because it has demon/devil blood more then likey the way they are treated is what determined their ways. As long as the warlock isn't found using their power in public while growing up they likely wouldn't be shunned by anyone to have it affect their ways. Which is likely why they allow chaotic good and neutral warlocks.

A blackguard however is someone who made a pact with a demon/devil which may have involved selling their souls. Perhaps some of your are thinking they are the same thing?

This has been argued a lot though, all you make your own opinions on it and I'll have mine.

The problem with this (at least for me) is that you are going into the situation with a mind that is too open. While in RL I am very much an open/accepting person (you have to be when you are half black...), take into consideration that Faerun is a setting where entire races are evil. They are born evil, and instead must learn how to throw of the shackles of their sheer evilness. As for the whole tiefling thing, Yea. I agree that most tieflings are evil, but being a tiefling is not a curse as being a Warlock through bloodline is.
~Tieflings are just unfortunate, think of them as genetic hiccups
~Warlocks are unfortunate as well, but their power stems from something beyond their normal racial confines/blood (there is demon 'power', not blood, running through them. You may resist your demon blood, sure, but if the sheer power of a demon runs through your veins expect to be rather evil ("power always corrupts" Is the philosophy here)