A question on a Warlocks Morality

[Vuzantar]

I agree with this... In most fantasy it is rare that characters that deal with demons, etc are accepted within normal society.

I also feel this is the same as any evil characters... once they don't play by the rules within a good or nuetral society then they are kicked out. Noone should want to group with a manic killer...

[Ithildin]

[BEGIN RANT]
I hate the Warlock class in NWN2 (I've never used it in P&P to say whether I hate it in there). I would be 3% happier with life if I didn't look at the statistics page and see so many. I <b>REAAAAAALLY</b> want a warlock witch hunt. I want people to never say "I'm a warlock" without being afraid they'll be nailed to a stake and set on fire, pelted with rotten fruit until they are tarred and feathered then purified with holy water, or has a rock tied around their neck and tossed off the end of a pier.

Not to mention the class is dumb (to me). I don't like the twist on magic it has. I don't like the concept it has with dealing with demons/devils to get magic power. To me, it forces players to make an uncanny background story in order to explain how they became a warlock in the first place. Nothing like a PW full of players with background story of "Yeah, when I was little, my daddy told the Devil 'Yo, gimme yo powahs foo!'". And I <b>REALLY</b> don't like when I say that and someone goes "YEAH BUT YOU CAN DEAL WIF FEY TOO!" Let's consider how dumb that sounds:

OMG A FAIRY GAVE ME THE POWER TO TURN INTO A HORNED DEVIL!

Screw that noise The less people playing Warlocks, the better the server will be.

[/END RANT]

Warlocks aren't the only ones with this ability, the sorc/wizard shapechange spell, 9th level i believe, also allows them to turn into a horned devil, some sort of giant shadow and a few other evil things.

They also get stone skin and premonition which is basically the same as the dark foresight of warlocks, fear and darkness, combustion and a few other spells that have the same effects warlock blasts do.

I tried warlock when I first started on Sundren, wasn't impressed with the class really got bored with the blasts and such, but there are more ways to get that power than just making pacts with creatures.

The description of warlocks implies they are often born with the power inside them already not from making a pact with demons like a certain npc did.

When I tried a warlock he wasn't some someone who summoned demons to make a deal with them for power he was simply a sun elf who had a fey'ri ancestor and had learned to harness the power inside of him. For those who don't know Fey'ri are the product of demons and sun elves breeding in an attempt to increase their power and attempted to take over the High Forest with that power.

(description copied from http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Warlock)
"Born of a supernatural bloodline, a warlock seeks to master the perilous magic that suffuses his soul. Unlike sorcerers and wizards who approach arcane magic through the medium of spells, a warlock invokes powerful magic through nothing more than an effort of will.

The font of dark magic burning in their souls makes them resistant to many forms of attack and arms them with dangerous power. Warlocks learn to harness their power to perform a small number of specific attacks and tricks called invocations.

Warlocks make up for their lack of versatility by being tougher and more resilient than sorcerers or wizards. By harnessing his innate magical gift through fearsome determination and willpower, a warlock can perform feats of supernatural stealth, beguile the weak-minded, or scour his foes with blasts of eldritch power."

Not saying warlocks should be accepted or anything just pointing out they aren't all people who made deals with demons or anything for the power.

[Lothoir]

Another warlock?
But anyways, we call our powers from a dark font. Hence the 'taint'. Even if you don't cast a spell there's an 'air' around you. Milk may spoil, glass may break, crops may suffer, and even a whiff of brimstone could follow you about. Yes, you can tell someone's a warlock if you study them long enough. Why some warlocks even have certain things they can or can't do, perhaps based on a code: For instance they can't wear a certain colour, or can't enter a home without an invite, or drink something at certain hour of the day.
(Taken from the Complete Arcane)

I have to disagree strongly with you here. First off, the part of yours that I've colored green is from Player's Handbook II, and even then those conditions are only given as optional roleplaying traits that some players can choose for their characters to make them more unique. (PHBII, page 65)

There are also other possible character traits that could apply to characters such as the Hellion "You are an enfant terrible, a troublemaker who cares nothing for the expectations or sensibilities of those around you. You delight in scandalizing those who seek to censure your behavior.". Then there is the Possessed, "You are a plaything for the sinister powers that created you, Several different spirits or personas constantly vie for control of your body." Both of these are taken from page 64 of PHBII. However right at the very beginning of the section it says "One or more of the following character themes could apply to you." Could apply, as in if you want to can choose to use these ideas to flesh out your character some. None of them are mandatory in any way for a warlock.

The red part is from page 5 of Complete Arcana "The font of dark magic burning in their souls makes them more resistant to many forms of attack and arms them with dangerous power."


The part remaining black, I believe, is a description of Tieflings. I'm unsure however.But I do know it does not in any way refer to Warlocks. Unless you could supply me with a page number and book?


However I do agree wholeheartedly that Warlocks should be persecuted. This section from Complete Arcana on Warlocks under Chapter Seven (Arcane Campaigns) sums up how Warlocks should be viewed quite nicely, I think.

Even more so than sorcerers, warlocks tend to be viewed with great suspicion and fear, and only the most infamous necromancers come close to provoking the distrust and emnity that warlocks commonly elicit. Even the least superstitious know that a warlock's power is derived from dangerous and evil patrons, and even a warlock whose worth has been proven time and again in the service of good might still be thought to have potential for dark treachery.

Few towns or cities will long abide a known warlock in their midst--low-level warlocks often risk being assaulted by pitchfork-weilding mobs. Warlock of moderate power rarely need fear outright attack, but they may find themselves subject to a variety of hints (subtle or otherwise) that their presence is unwanted. High-level warlocks are generally considered far too dangerous to offend, but they can often find themselves subject to harassment of a different sort as successive waves of crusading adventurers show up on their doorsteps, each intent on eliminating such a clearly maleolent threat.

Warlocks fare a little better when under the protection of a local lord, but few good-hearted nobles freely offer a warlock employment. The reputation of these fell arcanists is simply too black, and it takes a lord of exceptional wisdom and character to ignore a warlock's fearsome reputation and look into the heart of the person beneath the stereotype.

Like the sorcerer, the warlock is valued far less for his counsel and knowledge than for his ability to wreak havoc against his foes, and those rare few who obtain a powerful patron likely serve as bodyguards or highly capable arcane warriors. Most warlocks never swear fealty to another individual, though, preferring to wield their unique ppwer only in their own name.

Oh, and GodBeastX, the invocation that allows Warlocks in NWN2 to turn into a Horned Devil (Word of Changing) is a baleful polymorph spell in Pen and Paper that changes someone else into "an inoffensive form" such as a squirrel, or penguin. (Complete Arcana 136) I would hugely prefer that version of the spell to the NWN2 version. But then again Dark Foresight wouldn't give any DR if it retained the PnP version.

[Rhazeal]

A very important thing to remember about DnD: The rulebooks are not the "Set in stone" rules that you may want to make them. They are subject to alteration at the whim of the DM. Of course, we have to be more strict in our interpretation of the rules when playing a CRPG, but that does not mean that you can simply grab a book and say "LOOK! IT'S HERE! HA!" - 'Cause then Sundren wouldn't exist.

[Ithildin]

The part remaining black, I believe, is a description of Tieflings. I'm unsure however.But I do know it does not in any way refer to Warlocks. Unless you could supply me with a page number and book?

I'm pretty sure your right about that, I used to play a tiefling character on the nwn 1 server I played on, did a lot of searching for info on them before I made him and that part mentioned sounds very familiar of the traits they could have. Until nwn 2 came out I never heard of warlocks so I doubt I read it about them.

[GodBeastX]

Warlocks aren't the only ones with this ability, the sorc/wizard shapechange spell, 9th level i believe, also allows them to turn into a horned devil, some sort of giant shadow and a few other evil things.

They also get stone skin and premonition which is basically the same as the dark foresight of warlocks, fear and darkness, combustion and a few other spells that have the same effects warlock blasts do.

Wizard is the only spellcaster I think is balanced for D&D play because you have to prepare the spells and such. It's not like you can just whip a shapechange spell out of your ass if you didn't think you'd need it before.

Sorceror less balanced cuz you have everything available to you. At least you have it in limitted quanitity.

Warlock is way out of balance cuz you can do it infinitely. The idea I know they were "Trying" to get across was infinite weak spells, however, they don't tend to be that weak. And to make it worse, you got NWN2 engine-only situations that make them overpowered.

I watched a warlock vs wizard battle. The warlock turned invisible so the wizard couldn't pop it with anything, then as the wizard buffed, the warlock just devoured the magic off of them over and over again. AOE spells are so easy to avoid in NWN2, especially since warlocks have infinite haste spells, it was such a one sided battle.

Certainly I am thinking PVP, but that's how I compare ability of a class in this scenario. PVE, I think fighter is the best classes since you just need hitpoints to be at maximum effectiveness.

[Raksha]

*snort*

The infinite-spells thing is really only marginally useful, and I speak from experience. Especially once sorcerers and wizards start graduating to Disintegrate, Greater Missile Storm and Bigby's Broken Hand, they make the warlocks feel inadequate in every way except in the midst of a huge enemy horde. And that's why a spellcaster always has a fighter friend along to buff -- mage armor, Protection from Evil, Heroism, Bulls' Strength, Stoneskin and watch the horde disappear.

[Ithildin]

Well the thing with warlocks is yes they are pretty powerful on a low magic server, mid magic and high magic they get left far behind. A warlock going through the single player campaign often didn't get to attack since everything was dead before they could finish casting.

But a wizard with quicken spell(2 spells per round over the warlocks 1) could likely have quicken see invisible/blind sight and hit the warlock with a holding spell, depending on the level of the two fighting.

I'm not arguing balance with you on this was just pointing out there were more ways than dealing with demons for a character to be a warlock. As Sundren is a low magic server, Warlocks are pretty powerful in it since they aren't as dependent on gear as much as other classes.

[GodBeastX]

*snort*

The infinite-spells thing is really only marginally useful, and I speak from experience. Especially once sorcerers and wizards start graduating to Disintegrate, Greater Missile Storm and Bigby's Broken Hand, they make the warlocks feel inadequate in every way except in the midst of a huge enemy horde. And that's why a spellcaster always has a fighter friend along to buff -- mage armor, Protection from Evil, Heroism, Bulls' Strength, Stoneskin and watch the horde disappear.

You'll change your mind on that when you see future dungeons. Sure, the dungeons are pretty short now, but wait til you get into ones with wave after wave and wizards are begging the party leader for a place to rest That infinite casting will be pretty attractive. However, it's mostly the PVP aspect I was referring to, and that was only a piece of my gripe.

My main issue is all these NPC Devils/Demons people are inventing in backstories to explain their character's origins. We have way too many warlocks running around and just makes the whole world feel "Infernal".

[Dragoncleric]

Well I'm sure once you see all the bloody Favoured Souls running around with the expansion this conversation will go from devils/demons to celestials. They are basically sorceror spell-like, clerics.(Cha based instead of Wis) Especially if you combine it with Aasimar blood.

So all in all, blame the not easily converted PnP 3.5 system. It works great for gaming groups, but in large player-base persistant worlds, it doesn't. I reckon this is why I still play PnP, and not fantasy-level based MMO's. All this BS rubbish talk means little to a small group of only 4 to 6 people.
No one care's who is who as long as they contribute to the party in some way.
But with on-line games it's like a auto-stigma because there's too many people playing something.

[GodBeastX]

And that is the key. We want more people playing classes/Races that fit within common terms than the exceptions that conflict with them. Warlocks conflict with common world, and seeing tons of them running around changes the feel of the game. In a 5 person P&P group, 1 person playing a warlock is 20% of the players, but it certainly doesn't make the game world feel like it's only populated with demon lovers.

[GodBeastX]

Just a note, these are my personal viewpoints. I'm sure they'll switch like they always do over time Other developers enjoy warlocks.

[undeadsteak]

Aye, once these new classes r out, im pretty sure everyone will be dying to play them and maybe we'll see less Warlocks.. Warlocks seem a bit unfair PvP imo, but they're only powerful when they're higher level.. and SR sorta screws everything up for them.

[Ouroboros]

Ah. A good discussion. Getting all the opinions i need. I know know my poor warlock is going to have a fair whack of predjudice against her and as she is a cranky character by nature, she is going to have a bit of "Fun".

But as far as balancing goes, i think they're quite even. A Warlock has a very limited selection of, well lets not call them spells but "Abilities" as that is more the term of it. Thier advantage comes into play by their ability to call upon an unlimited pool of energy and power, but they suffer in that they are not diverse. They have to depend heavily on allocating Skill Points or even another class to cover more facets. For example, Wizards and even sorcerers can take spells that boost all of their stats ("Bulls strength", "Heroism" and so fourth) and this doesn't damage their overall adaptability to other areas. Warlocks on the other hand, can take "Abilities" that yes, boost things like Dex, Diplomacy, detection and so fourth, but this comes at a very high cost of other areas. Long story short, a Warlock has to focus on an area and lose out on others.

A High level warlock lets remember, if they took Eldritch Doom, gets a Spell that acts like a Fireball. Wizards and sorcers get this at level 4! Their 9th level equivalent is Meteor storm that blasts the crap out of... well... everything or anything. A Warlock doesn't have anything close to this kind of power.

The mian difference i see is that a Warlock is like a Duracel Battery; They keep going and going and going and going and..... and so on. Their Casting abilities allows them to Fight, keep fighting and only rest so that they can recover health if need be. If you have something that gives regeneration, i found that in the campaign i would just let my other chars die because my Warlock would just be able to keep on rolling and enter each fight at full capacity. Again, remember the campaign wasn't that hard! If you have a level 15 Sorcerer vs a level 15 Warlock, i think it would be a very tough battle for both of them and a level 20 Warlock vs a Level 20 Sorcere reduces the Wralocks chance significantly however, a Level 15 Sorcer vs an Armada of level 10 goblins and a Level 15 Warlock vs the same army i think the Warlock will have the advantage. The sorcer will hae to use their more powerful spells early to get them off them and then they run out of juice and would be overrun. A Warlock will be able to keep blasting and blasting and would only have to stop because they got sleepy and even ig they got overun, if they had "Walk unseen" they can just go invisible, relocate them selves and start again.

I guess the other advantage is their better combat skills and health. I find that sometimes their spellcasting isn't effective enough especially in close range. Being able to Dual weild with a BAB of Medium instead of the Sorcerer or Wizards Low makes a huge difference, and as they are less dependant on Charisma than a Sorcerer, they can easily take points in Constitution, Intelligence, even Str and Dex without a lot of penalty to their overall fighting ability.

All in all, i don't think any class thus far is overpowered or unfair. They all are strong in one area and weak in another and even if they're not particuarly weak in something, They generally don't have any Major Strengths to make them unfair in any way. Everyone has a weak spot: A good player finds Weak spots and makes their own weaknesses seem unreachable!

I use to go Multi class Sorcerer / Fighter but they were too weak. Now going a Warlock . Ranger seems to offer the best of both worlds, and it's kindof fun making the story (Would have gone Warlock / fighter cause of the extra feats, but Ranger is just more suitable for my RP style)

Anyway, thanks yall. Awesome discussion. Really getting the stuff i need to get into Sundren properly.

[undeadsteak]

Eldritch doom stacks with an essence though, which makes it much stronger, n it does around 60 dmg nyways. And when expansion is out theres eldritch mastery with buffs dmg by 50% i believe. so if you had vitrolic with that too, it should deal out ALOT of damage. just like a meteor shower. And theres much more essences which are simply supportive like bewitching blast, use eldritch doom n that and you've got a confusion that deals lots of damage and is pretty wide area.