On Powerbuilding

[Mighty_Draco]

Right, time to clarify where I was coming from! You can make whatever character you like... really you can. They can have any combination of stats and classes. But it's like Mako says, those stats and classes need to be RP'd out and they need to make some sort of sense. Some of you good people who've posted in this thread wouldn't believe some of the things that crop up (Pop quiz: why would a half orc Barbarian/Cleric take a level of sorcerer when they have a CHA of 8? Why did they have a level of cleric when their wisdon is 10 for that matter?). You can powerbuild all you want so long as you can RP it and the combination isn't ridiculously silly. However, that said, the Sundren forums aren't really the right place for a lengthy discussion of whether your monk will 'pwnzlorz teh mobs' if you throw in a level of wizard. Go talk about that on the OE forums, or Thieves Guild or something... otherwise us DMs will see and despair! I wasn't angry with anyone when I posted to that thread... all I wanted to do was close down a discussion that had turned into one about whether taking a single spellcaster level for no particular reason will maximise a monk's combat effectiveness. Hell, people can take a single spellcaster level on their monk if they want. But please... discuss the combat effectiveness of builds elsewhere on the interwebs unless some poor Sundarian genuinely has no idea about NWN2 and really needs help to avoid unintentionally creating a character entirely constructed of Nerf Rubber.

Yes, my comment in that thread was pretty harsh, and actually I'm not anything like that nasty to players... I just wanted to shut down the discussion. Seriously, you're all great, I've been really impressed by the quality of players since returning. Hope this clears up the issue somewhat. If not, ask. I don't usually bite like that .

Toodles!

I can agree fully with wanting characters to make sense. I just think it's important to say that powerbuilding and roleplaying are independent and not mutually exclusive. As for your orc, I didn't think you could take sorcerer and cleric if your charisma and wisdom are below 11. In PnP, this orc would be able to take the classes, but he wouldn't have access to spells. Since, apparently, you can in NWN2, it might call for a tweak in the rules or at least a slap on the character's wrist.

One more thing, I'm still a bit confused why you would object to a powerbuild discussion on an off-topic forum. By the looks of it, you're mixing character optimization and munchkining.

[Mighty_Draco]

In addition to what I wrote above... I went back and checked the link Draco put to GBXs post in his op at the start of this thread. That pretty much sums it up, and is effectively what I was saying above. In terms of a logical fallacy, there actually isn't one though that may not be immediately obvious (consider the following). There is no hard and fast rule about what stats/builds are allowed, but (1) if someone has an obvious powerbuild (2) and they don't RP it (stats, background/RP reasons for class combination, etc), (3) then DMs will be unhappy (we won't neccesarily do anything about it, though we might). Nothing illogical in that, I think you will find that the statement "If (1) and (2), then (3)" is actually logically self-consistent even if it does not give a tidy indication of outcomes or complete list of decision making conditions (not an exhaustive statement).

The fallacy is when (1) implies (2) is stated. What I'm trying to say is that (1) is irrelevant. If I don't RP, then DMs will be unhappy. There's no need to throw in "if someone has an obvious powerbuild"

[Machiavelli]

The fallacy is when (1) implies (2) is stated. What I'm trying to say is that (1) is irrelevant. If I don't RP, then DMs will be unhappy. There's no need to throw in "if someone has an obvious powerbuild"

There is in fact a need for the "if". If people don't RP too well and their character isn't a powerbuild, that's fine, nobody will get in trouble for this. When they're inappropriately RPing a supercharged powerthingy, they might get stepped upon. That's where the "if" comes in.

As for the Half-Orc, unfortunately people can indeed take spellcasting classes irrespective of whether they'll get access to the spells (Cha 6 sorcerers for instance).

In terms of the thread, it turned into munchkining (go have a look). I think Nickbeat was mostly interested in spell durations for a mage, but by the end of the first page people were trying to convince him of the virtues of taking cleric of mystra instead, and talking about how nasty a sacred fist build might be. Continue the discussion if you like, I was mostly making a point, and that's been done.

[Gairun]

I don't log in because you send me so many tells and PMs, Gairun! Duh.

Shouldn't this read

"I do log in because you send me so many tells and PMs, Gairun/NebulonB! Yay!"

[Gairun]

I made the monk/cleric of Mystra point Mach because I believed that,

1.) That actual order of monks exists and would fit into the lore/background well.
2.) It would make solid Role-Play sense as opposed to a Monk/Mage.
3.) Nickbeat does not know the game mechanics that well and often asks for opinions and help. Check the Assassin thread, or the Arcane Trickster thread.

I still love you even though we have never spoken before Mach

[Mighty_Draco]

There is in fact a need for the "if". If people don't RP too well and their character isn't a powerbuild, that's fine, nobody will get in trouble for this. When they're inappropriately RPing a supercharged powerthingy, they might get stepped upon. That's where the "if" comes in.

As for the Half-Orc, unfortunately people can indeed take spellcasting classes irrespective of whether they'll get access to the spells (Cha 6 sorcerers for instance).

In terms of the thread, it turned into munchkining (go have a look). I think Nickbeat was mostly interested in spell durations for a mage, but by the end of the first page people were trying to convince him of the virtues of taking cleric of mystra instead, and talking about how nasty a sacred fist build might be. Continue the discussion if you like, I was mostly making a point, and that's been done.

So, if I gather this correctly, you're saying you have some sort of role playing criteria for powerbuilding? If I make, say a half orc sorcerer/wizard/cleric/druid with an int of 6 and no lore, and role play him as a well studied scholar, it's alright because it's definitely not a powerbuild, but a monk/cleric with an int of 6 isn't because it's a powerbuild?

I don't know what you see on that thread, but I see a discussion on character builds independent of roleplaying. It's not exclusive of roleplaying, merely independent. It's nothing that should cause a problem unless it's made into one.

I just tested it, and it looks like your orc friend receives nothing from those class levels. If you plan on punishing him, just make him keep those class levels. It's not at all powerbuilding, it's more something akin to rolling a die to decide which class you'll take next. I can see why a DM would object to such a thing, but it's not a problem I would classify as munchkining.

[Jaeram]

Right, time to clarify where I was coming from! You can make whatever character you like... really you can. They can have any combination of stats and classes. But it's like Mako says, those stats and classes need to be RP'd out

Ok, this puts me at ease a bit, to tell you the truth I felt a bit ostracized on my Assassin thread lol, but in no way did I have an intention of not role playing an aspect of my character like that. So now I feel a bit better and less confused lol.

(Pop quiz: why would a half orc Barbarian/Cleric take a level of sorcerer when they have a CHA of 8?

I kinda get cleric (domains) but sorcerer doesn't really make sense lol, oh well.

really needs help to avoid unintentionally creating a character entirely constructed of Nerf Rubber.

LOL!

[rustediron]

orc + sorc/bard = RDD.

[Jaeram]

If only RDD wasn't an application class eh?

[MKartMaster]

orc + sorc = RDD.

But with a CHA of 8, wouldn't you fail the "cast 1st level spells" check?

I know I tried a theoretical mid-build change with Elith to sorc instead of wizard, but it didn't let me take AA since I had only 10 CHA and thus couldn't cast 1st level spells.

[rustediron]

RDD requirement is 8 lore, I think.

[Gairun]

Yep does not require being able to cast spells at all. Just either Sorc or Bard 1 level and 8 lore. You saw these abominations on arena servers, where they belonged!

[MKartMaster]

RDD requirement is 8 lore, I think.

*checks*

Well whaddya know.

Class: Bard or Sorcerer
Skills: Lore 8 ranks

Race

Any nondragon (cannot already be a half-dragon).
Skills

Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks.
Languages

Draconic.
Spellcasting

Ability to cast arcane spells without preparation.
Special

The player chooses a dragon variety when taking the first level in this prestige class.

[Machiavelli]

So, if I gather this correctly, you're saying you have some sort of role playing criteria for powerbuilding? If I make, say a half orc sorcerer/wizard/cleric/druid with an int of 6 and no lore, and role play him as a well studied scholar, it's alright because it's definitely not a powerbuild, but a monk/cleric with an int of 6 isn't because it's a powerbuild?

What you're missing here is that people don't make half-orc sorcerer/wizard/cleric/druids with an int of 6, no lore, and then proceed to play them as learned scholars. If they did, that would be a problem. I'm basically just saying that badly RPed powerbuilds are more likely to incur DM wrath... because it's not just bad RPing, it's powergaming to boot. Surely this isn't hard to understand.

It's like I said above, people can make whatever build they want. If they RP it badly, they might get a gentle nudge from the DMs as encouragement. If they RP badly and gratuitously powergame as well, then it might be a nasty shove rather than a gentle nudge. That's all I'm saying. There is a real difference between the two scenarios.

Anyway, I'm actually going to go do some DMing rather than continuing to post in the forums!

[Machiavelli]

orc + sorc/bard = RDD.

Rusty wins the powerbuilding pop-quiz! I'll be watching you carefully . Go play starcraft or somethin' why don't ya, or has the little voice in your computer stopped demanding more pylons?