Difficult things to Role Play

[cmosier]

Recent events on the server have me thinking about some of the stickier situations that we sometimes have to Role Play.

Rules / Requests
1. Keep responses civil and try not to use names without permission.
2. Remember the difference between players and characters.
3. This is meant for RP purposes only. Please... no real world debates on the topics below. Please... please... please...

Nobility
This one I've had to deal with for obvious reasons. Let me state by saying, I'm a pretty hard core lefty, so this is a difficult role for me to play and some of that seeps into my character when it's not supposed to, though I can justify his nicer actions using RP.

The issue is, in this fantasy world, Nobles do rule. They own the lands and pay a taxes to a ruling Government. They are treated very differently than commoners when it comes to enforcement of the laws.

To answer the question... Why does Byrun walk around like he's entitled? Because he is.

Women Warriors and Equality
This one is tough for me to Role Play. Growing up in the South with my mother, I learned that unless you're defending a life, you simply never hit a woman. However... my character does train Mercenaries, some of which happen to be women. This means a lot of sparring and getting knocked around. The players have been real helpful with this and I thank you all for doing so.

Also, if anybody thinks Julia Arvison or Adama Hrakness are frail little flowers... then I would suggest you fight them so this assumption can be quickly remedied.

Racism
I'm actually some what thrilled that so many of us find it difficult to hate a drow, orc, or teifling simply based on their race. It's a testament to how far as a species we've come.

That being said, I think accusing an elf who would shoot a drow on sight of being a "racist" is a little much. It would be like accusing a paladin of being a racist for assuming the vampire was evil. I don't really think people are looking for a reason to be hateful, they are trying to play a character loosely based on the guidelines the setting has made for them.

Religion
Remember, the Gods are tangible beings here. They actually intervene in the lives of mortals on a daily basis. So, a character who follows a certain God would behave in a certain way to keep his God's favor. If he didn't, bad things could happen.

This isn't meant to offend, though I'm old enough to know these topics can be a bit difficult to talk about. If it's a problem, I've no issue with the thread being deleted immediately or send me message, and I'll edit it to nothing.

Disclaimer: These are personal observations and not meant to criticize or tell others how to play their characters.

[thaelis]

That being said, I think accusing an elf who would shoot a drow on sight of being a "racist" is a little much. It would be like accusing a paladin of being a racist for assuming the vampire was evil.

I agree with all of this wholeheartedly, but *especially* this.

I know its kinda tough on the players of these races, but for example most people upon seeing a Tiefling realistically would kill on sight, assuming it's a Succubus/Erinyes or other kind of true demon.

They should really be wearing a hood or something any time they are in public. Whilst many PCs would accept them for who they are you have to bear in mind that NPC's make up 99% of Sundren's population, and those are mostly uneducated commoners i.e. Peasants with pitchforks.

Edit: Ok, maybe I should say "I would like to see them wearing hood", don't wanna go telling people how they should play >< Just expect arrows and stabby things otherwise.

[Intrepid42]

I find the topic of responding to drow particularly complex and challenging because of my PC's position in allegiance, time and year. I do have the benefit of having a great deal of detailed information to guide my response, however.

Glyir is oathsworn to Clan Bristlebeard and has the stats to take a heavily-thoughtful stance on things. Clan Bristlebeard's parent clan is Clan Battlehammer of Mithral Hall. It is currently DR 1382. I am not aware of any significant departure from the lore for the dwarven holds eastward in the Spine.

Mithral Hall has fought off a drow invasion and lost many kin in battle to a surprise attack. Whurest currently faces off against a rapacious army from the Underdark, so local access exists. Drow are almost without exception manipulative, evil, and those seen on the surface are typically scouts for a raiding party.

Over the years Glyir has met/been told of a number of lone drow wanderers who traveled openly and repeatedly in Sundren's history. Those he knows of who were associated with a group of their fellows have typically been hostile in deed. Most of those who tended to walk alone were not known to be hostile in deed, although they tended to leave shortly after. Benign, sneaky assassins or clever scouts? That is unknown IC.

Glyir has seen significant numbers of apparently well-meaning adventurers defend lone drow with words and even take up arms in their defence. When investigation has been attempted, he has found no evidence of magical manipulation or domination, except in one case I can recall. Some of the adventurers have vanished from sight shortly after due to unknown reasons, but most of the adventurers have gone on to show relatively normal behaviour once the drow has moved on or otherwise disappeared. Poor Glyir has a lot of unknowns here.

Mithral Hall was reclaimed from the Duergar and Shadow Dragon in DR 1356. Whatever your feelings about R.A. Salvatore's work, it exists and is potent in a lore-defining sense. In DR 1356 people in Icewind Dale stopped Kill-on-Sight for one particular drow ranger, who has been associated with Mithral Hall since, for the last 26-odd years. One exception who has proven himself over years, with at least one failed attempt at bringing over one of his fellows known to Mithral Hall.

The drow ranger is known to be soft-hearted on many matters, including the hope of his kin being one day freed from the twin thralldom of Lloth and their natures. Respect for the parent clan and it's members means this is considered, but must be balanced against the danger.

Between them both the drow ranger and Mithral Hall have a long list of drow enemies (although they do tend to drop off the list as fast as they join it) who have an exaggerated sense of vengeance and a tendency to shoot poison bolts first and ask questions later. Mithral Hall is many miles to the east, but it's child clan is here and a potential target.

This background gives my PC particular priorities when sighting lone drow travelling openly.

[cmosier]

Thaelis: It is tough on the players, though I believe they pick those races to enjoy that aspect of RP. A long while ago, I got together with two other players and we played exiled gray orcs. It was fun trying to avoid everybody.

Intrepid: You're correct. Like it or not, drow elves are becoming more accepted and we all know the reason. I was using them as an example for a more general "issue."

[Doubtful]

Recent events on the server have me thinking about some of the stickier situations that we sometimes have to Role Play.

Rules / Requests
1. Keep responses civil and try not to use names without permission.
2. Remember the difference between players and characters.
3. This meant for RP purposes only. Please... no real world debates on the topics below. Please... please... please...

Oooooh, good thread - I approve heartily.

There are huge differences between what you'd expect your average Faerunian to think on certain subjects and how we here in the modern real world think about things.

Nobility
This one I've had to deal with for obvious reasons. Let me state by saying, I'm a pretty hard core lefty, so this is a difficult role for me to play and some of that seeps into my character when it's not supposed to, though I can justify his nicer actions using RP.

The issue is, in this fantasy world, Nobles do rule. They own the lands and pay a taxes to a ruling Government. They are treated very differently than commoners when it comes to enforcement of the laws.

To answer the question... Why does Byrun walk around like he's entitled? Because he is.

Yup, this is persistent medieval fantasy land, loosely based on the whole feudal system thing - The nobles rule and do largely what they like, after all they have the money, power and make the rules. The general population is sufficiently cowed, happy or to busy worrying about where the next meal is coming from to be even thinking about challenging it. Go around fermenting dissent amongst rural peasants and they're as likely to gank you as the lords themselves - After all, when it comes to it they're poorly fed and have wooden pitchforks for weapons, the lords on the other hand have swords, metal armour, horses and professional warriors.

There does tend to be a somewhat common (and I'm as guilty of this as anyone) trend to represent Nobility as evil or stupid, of course nobility should be as widely spread in alignment and views as any other social strata.

Women Warriors and Equality

This one is tough for me to Role Play. Growing up in the South with my mother, I learned that unless you're defending a life, you simply never hit a woman. However... my character does train Mercenaries, some of which happen to be women. This means a lot of sparring and getting knocked around. The players have been real helpful with this and I thank you all for doing so.

Also, if anybody thinks Julia Arvison or Adama Hrakness are frail little flowers... then I would suggest you fight them so this assumption can be quickly remedied.

The realms is pretty damn clear on this one, the genders are considered equal and sex isn't a consideration in any career. It's a tough one to fully process given our society, especially when you tie it into the whole sex and sexuality side of the realms. The implications of gender and sexuality being a non-consideration are pretty vast, you'd have to reconsider a lot of our language for a start! Even more so when you consider the pseudo medieval setting (Think about how the whole Paladin's as Chivalric Knights thing falls flat on its face without the huge gender inequality of the age).

Gender shouldn't be a consideration at all in D&D, it's all people regardless of whether bits go in or out. It's just folk. It's not punching a woman in the face, just a person. Gender doesn't weigh into it.

Something worth a quick read on the matter (don't worry, it's a short story) is Iain M. Banks' novella The State of the Art.

(worth noting, several monstrous species are quoted as having matriarchal or patriarchal societies).

Racism

I'm actually some what thrilled that so many of us find it difficult to hate a drow, orc, or teifling simply based on their race. It's a testament to how far as a species we've come.

That being said, I think accusing an elf who would shoot a drow on sight of being a "racist" is a little much. It would be like accusing a paladin of being a racist for assuming the vampire was evil. I don't really think people are looking for a reason to be hateful, they are trying to play a character loosely based on the guidelines the setting has made for them.

Another awkward one - But we need to be clear on this, it's not racism as we know it here in the real world. This is specisism.

Drow, Half Orcs, Teiflings. THEY'RE PART (or full) MONSTERS.

It isn't racist to want to kill (or run away from) a monster, it's common sense. People are going to be (rightly) scared by folk that seem to share blood with devils, demons or beings from alternate planes of existence.

Orcs have caused a whole, massive, aircraft carrier sized boat-load of death, grief and sorrow in Sundren, half-orcs are going to be hated, spat-on, rocks thrown at them and generally despised by most of the common population, there'll be another part of the population that'd probably just stab them / lynch them as soon as look at them 'just to be sure' that they're not spying for the Bloodmaim.

Teiflings - THEY'RE PART DEVIL/DEMON. Re-read that until you understand.

Taking an ECL race, half-orc or even Dragon Disciple is to accept that you're probably going to get a load of IC abuse from other characters based on your birth. If folk get wind of character who frequently hang-out with such people then they may get stick for it too!

Treating part-monstrous things as, well, part-monstrous is perfectly in-line with the setting. I don't see many (if any) of the horc hugging teifling BFFing characters going around trying to convince people Gnolls are misunderstood, the Bloodmaim are just going through a phase or that the demons of Argyle deserve a second chance, after all it's not their fault they got possessed.

Religion

Remember, the Gods are tangible beings here. They actually intervene in the lives of mortals on a daily basis. So, a character who follows a certain God would behave in a certain way to keep his God's favor. If he didn't, bad things could happen.

It can be hard for some to process the extremely polythiestic society of the realms with our generally monotheistic one. While a character might follow one god above all others it doesn't always mean that their chosen god is the one that answers their prayers. Even the most devout people will honour, respect and pay tribute to a vast selection of dieties during their daily business, those that aren't clerics are likely to pay respect to an even broader range of churches and gods during their day with even the evil gods having their place in the lives and doings of your average joe.

Placating and appeasing the darker gods is as important as praising and smiling at the lighter ones - If you're after good luck at the races you might throw some money at both the luck gods, one to keep bad luck away and the other to bring good luck to you.

Remember the importance of the gods in the world and look beyond the single on named on your character sheet.

[Phantom Lamb]

I have a difficult time role playing "zealousness." Be it the crusader for the light, or the unapologetic storm lord, they are all hard for me simply because they don't logically justify their actions. Often, they are driven by things they know by faith. I have a hard time articulating that to other characters without sounding like a dufus.

[Aniril_Telin]

One title, Televangelist.

All joking aside, it's difficult very difficult, even when you've been playing an specific archetype for over a decade or two. Setting a reference of core behaviors you wish to portray and placing them somewhere for quick reference has helped me in the past, and I think it is high time I did so again.

In regard to the high polytheistic belief system I look at it in comparison the every day things that we in the real world do, wishing a friend good luck at an interview or playing a difficult game or something of the like is little different you just attach a diefic signature statement to it... hoping for rain to water crops or joking about jack frost, at least I try to, don't always get it right though.

As for the nobles, from what I have seen they have been doing a very good job at trying to maintain the aires and when interactions become difficult for lack of respect or what have you from others what I have witnessed in sheer determination to soldier on is commendable. In a even loosely feudalistic society I think of it like medieval times in that the nobility are for at the very least their own understanding if not the majority of the populace given their station by divine right placing them above the reprisal and disdain of any below their station. (yes this sometimes makes them the least favorite at parties.) But people want their favor so court (as is the term courtesan) their attention. The subject literally has aisle and aisle of documentation and references so I won't even attempt it here. I again from my own witness believe those nobles I have interacted with have put their best foot forward to try to give a sense of this to the community.

[Laurk]

1. Nobles need help. One of my favorite aspects of Legacy was the depth of their feudal system. I would love to see nobles who had rights of the peerage(right to trial & trial by combat, influence, ect). I'd love to see them have insolent commoners flogged for insulting them publically (loss of vitality) and to start seeing low borns fear & respect nobility.

I see Hellstrom get lipped off to constantly, and he doesn't seem to be able to do anything about it. In Legacy you would NOT speak to a noble that way if you were a commoner or you'd pay for it. Every noble knows that the only thing keeping the masses from dragging them into the streets and killing them is the illusion that they have authority, and external threats. Because of that, ALL nobles come together to punish insolent commoners so as to crush any rebellious inclinations before the can take root.

I'd love to see noble houses get their own factions, recruit oathsworn and knight their own chivalry.

I'd love to see, once some the invasions end, for tension to grow between noble houses and lead to wars.

2) I like gender making a difference in RP. Perfect equality is one of those politically correct aspects I wish I could escape in NWN. I wish we could have chivalry, damsels in distress. Honestly I think most people like that but feel obligated my modern society otherwise.

3) I hate seeing people treat monsters like its some post civil rights world for black people. Nearly everyone would know someone they cared for who got butchered/tortured/raped/enslaved by one of the monster races. Not only "should" these races be hated, those who allow them would be treated as traitors.

Good and evil are NOT philosophy in Faerun. They are real and tangible forces that can be detected, manipulated, warded against. These energies are attracted to you by your actions & your race. Some races are simply created with way more evil energy in them, and they would be hated/feared for very good reasons. When you decide to "trust" a drow, you subject innocent people to horrible torture & death.

4. People seem to do a good job with religeon in NWN, save that maybe there isn't quite enough fear of blaspheming the Gods. I would love to see someone insulting a god suddenly get cursed with a perminent 3 charisma or something.

[Jai_V]

The reasons PC's get away with giving a noble the finger is that every PC in this game is, in fact, special. When you play an RPG (CRPG or PnP), the NPCs are the hoi polloi. Player characters get to break the rules (or exemplify them to a degree that it's almost the same as breaking them), and live to tell about it.

And while I agree with everything listed, thus far, to some extent, I think that's yet another reason people give a PC drow/tiefling/etc more humane treatment than an NPC spawned by a DM.

[dangotgam]

All Drow must die.

[greypawn]

Role playing PVP
I think a lot of people struggle with this. Sometimes they are eager to pull the trigger instead of letting a fun rivarly build up. Turning somebody hostile means you can now attack them, not that you need to. I'm not sure why people are so scared to die sometimes. Its not like you can't just bounce back up with our ruleset. Maybe thats just a mindset I built playing such a bad guy for so long and always expecting to be the underdog. I wish using subdual was the default setting to encourage people to rp a bit after falling their enemy. Anywhoo, I'd rather die during a role play session than kill somebody without one.

And yeah, the drow thing is dumb. They are a monster race. Its like seeing Freddy Krueger on the street and wanting to help him out. Or letting the boogyman into your house and trusting him around your kids. You should get screwed over each and every time.

[OnyxTigress]

Touching on the racism thing, I fully second what Doubt has said. Yes, racism in our real life world is bad, but it's not really something you can apply to elf game here. Yes, there are a few instances where there are good members of these monsterous races. But that is something that is rare and not the norm.

I have never once been upset or angry when people have treated my tiefling Sita like some sort of monster, in fact I've enjoyed most of the time when people do it because it's what they should do.

[OnyxTigress]

Double post, cause can.

Going to touch on what greypawn has added and put my support behind it as well. Although I do not fault those who outright attack Ruby, being a blood sucking monster after all. But I still look forward to that bit of conflict rp that can happen before any actual fighting goes down.

One of the best interactions recently has been with Fuzzie's Kindra, where we had a fun talk before any fighting went down, and helped build up the tension that went down and it was very enjoyable. Though I don't expect people to try to subdual me down, since you know, vampire. You can kill me, I don't mind.

[GodBeastX]

Time for me to jump in!

This is a great thread, and it gives me some insight, but I have to admit, there's a bunch of animosity that should not exist for certain choices people make:

Honestly, people should crack open the CHampions of Valor or Champions of Ruin books to see how some things are actually done in the Forgotten Realms instead of assuming.

"The drow thing is dumb. They are a monster race."

This is false on so many levels, let me give you guys some quotes right from the book as examples:

Example: A good moon elf and his dwarf and human companions have just dealt with the warriors of a small tribe of Stonelands goblins raiding Cormyr farms. The dwarves and humans want to kill the females and young because they believe goblins are incurably evil, and if they are left alive they’ll just want revenge on the Cormyreans for their dead husbands and fathers. The moon elf points out that killing them just means that some other evil group is going to take over their territory and be a problem for the farmers later. He suggests leaving them alive with some of their treasure and weapons,
arranging to have a team of Chauntean priests teach them rudimentary agriculture appropriate for the area, and hoping that they change their ways in the future, since perhaps the raiding goblins were evil out of starvation or worship of evil gods. If his allies accept this proposal (perhaps after suggesting that the treasure left behind comes out of the elf’s share), the elf can later explain why he feels killing defenseless creatures, even evil ones, is wrong, because killing an evil creature just sends another soul to an evil deity, while giving it a chance to redeem itself not only steals a soul from the evil gods, it sends it to the good gods.

That is right from the Champions of Valor book. Some people view simply killing evil as just empowering the evil gods. Some feel like they should just be outright slaughtered.

Drow CAN be paladins in Forgotten Realms and they are Paladins. There is even a Drow Paladin blurb in the Campaign Settings book. Someone might think it's bullshit, someone else might call that Drow brother.

Here is something else that I think people have trouble considering on Sundren:

Good characters throughout Toril face the same dilemma that good characters elsewhere deal with: What to do with captured enemies? In a world where magic is much more common, dealing with captives can be much easier, especially with the use of portals, teleport spells, and other magic that lets you transport many creatures to other locations in a short period of time. Adventurers are common enough that most places have laws specifying what adventurers can and cannot do (Cormyr requires them to register, for example, making it easier to identify and track adventurers who take the law into their own hands), and good-aligned adventurers should not feel they can disregard local laws just because they’re out of earshot of a town. Most countries have laws about killing prisoners without a trial or at least make arrangements to ransom them back to their comrades in the hope that enemies will respect a similar agreement—so heroes who put captured opponents to the sword are little better than common murderers. Good heroes should prepare for the necessity of binding subdued opponents or be willing to let their captives go free with a promise of better behavior (and probably stripped of their weapons and armor so they can’t easily harm other people).

Of course, it is a different situation when the heroes are acting as agents of the law—killing a wanted murderer in open combat is completely legal, for example—but even those acting with approval of the law must obey these
same laws; a Waterdhavian priest of Tyr acting under orders of his temple to root out a thieves guild should try to capture some of the thieves if possible so they can be questioned, tried, and sentenced.

Laws affect behavior of good people just like anyone else. It might be a good act to simply spot someone's evil taint and strike them dead, but that does not make it lawful or law abiding.

Much of what we view as good or evil is actually lawful or chaotic and it can impact a lot of RP when people get confused about which is which. Even DMs sometimes make this mistake.

Then there is the concepts of what drives evil. People tend to move towards Chaotic Evil as evil characters, just like people tend to act Lawful Good as good characters. They forget how real law and chaos is.

There's also people are have no idea or do no believe they are evil. Think about it. People aren't walking around with detect evil spells and it might seem a no brainer that "If a paladin says they're evil, they must be!" Yet you might find that the common people will suddenly dislike a paladin who is "Detecting Evil and Smiting right after."



This is just one example of what philosophies people might have for being evil. While we can look at character sheets and know our characters are good or evil, lawful or chaotic, your character may not know these things.

Hell, it's even possible for a paladin to fall and still have his powers because an evil outsider force is filling his power and all his paladin abilities STILL WORK!

People need to keep in mind that common beliefs of the people are NOT the beliefs of the PC. Just like everyone in the world can hate Drow, that does not mean your PC has to hate Drow or is an idiot for trying to redeem them. Here's an example of something similar the common people might feel:



How people view something as good or evil does not change if something is good or evil. While people in Sundren may hate Drow without remorse, this does not make their act good if they start insisting Drow are killed regardless of their history.

I could go on and on really, but I'm going to reiterate, I HIGHLY suggest reading Champions of Ruin and Champions of Valor if you play a character where morality is important. They outline a great deal of questions that I often see players sending me tells about and scratching their heads. They are specific to Forgotten Realms so the logic applies greatly to the server.

[GodBeastX]

What I DON'T want to happen is people question their IC motivations or actions because of these books, but someone shouldn't get bent out of shape OOC because a PC handles things according to their character's moral compass. It'd suddenly suck if nobody was racist, and EVERYONE stopped to ask the Drow if they are Eilistraeean.

Racism is very real and common in the realms, and it may be lawful, unlawful, good or evil, but your character's view of good/evil is what matters not what is good and evil. Alignment is a REFLECTION of your choices, but not necessarily the alignment your char thinks they are. And that reflection will shift based on decisions, it's not a punishment, it's just a meter so certain spells change how they operate. Don't go saying "I am good so I should..." or "I am evil so I should..." say "I am like this so I am good..." "I am like this so I am evil..."