Dnd 5th edition

[GodBeastX]

So I've been messing with the fifth edition play test stuff. Seems dnd is going back to its roots.

[Yevelian]

Like, 1st edition roots or 3rd? I stopped at 3.5. A pox on 4th.

[Kirin]

Are there not, essentially, multiple flavors of 5E, so you can choose whether you want it to feel more like any edition you prefer yet still have a unified collection of sourcebooks?

[GodBeastX]

They have new mechanics but even delved into 1E stuff. I have to say, I like it gobs more than 4E. They have some interesting spells and some apparently can be slotted for multiple spell levels to have different effects.

One thing I really thought was cool is this background system. You pick a character background that gives a trait and skills. For example, Knight gives you some skills for dealing with people and you are likely to get nobles to give your party free hospitality in the campaign because you were a knight. Soldiers can have military ranks, Thugs have a reputation for being a asshole so people are afraid to turn you in for petty crimes. Artisans can craft stuff and get things cheaper cuz of it, and will be sought out to craft shit for people. I really like that your background plays a stronger role.

Races seem to matter a lot more too, instead of just being some crap you pick for attributes at level 1. Like check this ability for dwarves.

Dwarven Weapon Training: When you attack with an axe or a hammer with which you are proficient, the damage die for that weapon increases by one step: from d4 to d6, d6 to d8, d8 to d10, d10 to d12, and d12 to 2d6.

Wood Elves pretty much get hide in plain sight in the wilderness as long as they are "Lightly" obscured. High Elves can casts a cantrip even if they aren't a wizard. Stuff like that. I love it!

Abilities went back to rolling for them (Which I love) but they give you other methods. Seems like they tossed out dump stats all together, using base stats for saving throws now. So yes, even charisma, wisdom, int, etc can be a saving throw. I love that they describe stats a great deal better and when they come up, for example:

Charisma (Cha.)

Charisma measures your ability to influence others and the strength of your personality. A high Charisma suggests a strong sense of purpose, whereas a low Charisma indicates a less selfassured personality. Charisma also determines how well you lead those who follow you. All characters benefit from a high Charisma, especially those who deal with nonplayer characters, such as hirelings, henchmen, and intelligent monsters. Charisma is also important to spellcasters who manipulate magical power through sheer force of will.

Check
The DM commonly asks you to use Charisma when you make a check to negotiate a truce, calm a wild animal, deliver an inspiring speech, or
deceive someone.

Saving Throws

The DM commonly asks you to use Charisma when you make a saving throw to resist certain magical compulsions, especially those that would overcome your sense of yourself.

Magic Ability

Certain classes use Charisma as their magic ability. If Charisma is your magic ability, you add your Charisma modifier to the attack rolls of your spells, and the modifier helps determine the saving throw DCs of your spells.

Obviously this is playtesting though, so a lot of this is up in the air, but I think they're realizing 4E's folly and enhancing the play a great deal.

Too bad this wasn't 4E.

[Kirin]

Sounds like they used the Castles and Crusades system of using ability scores as saving throws and direct skill checks. At least they didn't also take it's terrible SIEGE system. ((Being able to make better rolls with your 6 CHA than your 18 WIS because you selected it as a Prime stat was mind-boggingly silly.))

[Rhifox]

They're already developing a 5th edition? Jeez. 4e didn't last long.

[Kirin]

They're already developing a 5th edition? Jeez. 4e didn't last long.

When Pazio's Pathfinder started outselling Dungeons & Dragons, I think they realized they had a dud on their hands with 4E and immediately began plans to wash their hands of it.

[GodBeastX]

Part of what I love in Pathfinder is everyone doesn't know the campaign setting like the back of their hand, so you can still be surprised/amazed and such without overly written lore.

Nothing like GMing and your players go "YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG! I READ THIS BOOK AND THAT'S UNPOSSIBLE!" That's when I go "This is GBX&D, not D&D."

[Snowmane]

I am still a fan of 2nd Edition with the Players Option books (Skills & Powers, Combat & Tactics, Spells & Magic). The only thing I'd do different would be to incorporate the way skills (with some tweaks) and AC are handled from 3rd edition back into it and be done with it.

That said, Pathfinder seems to be ok. They clearly put a lot of work into squeezing as much as they could out of the 3rd edition rule set and I give them high praise for their product. But from my experience Pathfinder characters become very powerful way too quickly. Experience requirements for leveling were much more difficult as you leveled in the earlier editions. The ease of leveling makes it hard to have a long term campaign without putting harsh restrictions on exp gain because the characters abilities get out of control.

IMO, AD&D has had a steady downward trend since Wizards snatched it up. 4e was god-awful, but I have heard some decent things about 5e. Unfortunately, unless it's some ground shattering new system I don't think my PnP group will be going back.

[thaelis]

Seems like they tossed out dump stats all together, using base stats for saving throws now. So yes, even charisma, wisdom, int, etc can be a saving throw.

If this is true then I already love the developers!

So, now that 18 Cha Fighter can talk his way out of anything, charm the ladies, and inspire the troops without needing 23 ranks in Diplomacy/Bluff again??? <3 <3 <3

[GodBeastX]

Not sure what you mean by Pathfinder chars leveling too quickly? The GM sets the leveling speed. You can easily make it take years to level up anywhere powerful.

[Silas North]

What exactly was so bad about 4E? This is an actual question. I'm not defending it as I've not really read the rules enough to make much of a judgment call (though I liked what little I HAVE read).

A common complaint I came upon was "It's more suited for a game like NWN than pnp". Personally, that sounds like a selling point to me. As wonderful as PWs are overall in NWN2, the battle system flat out sucks. A Neverwinter Nights game with 4E rules sounds fantastic from what I've heard so far.

Am I missing something, or is my viewpoint likely just biased due to the fact that I don't pnp?

[Kirin]

What exactly was so bad about 4E? This is an actual question. I'm not defending it as I've not really read the rules enough to make much of a judgment call (though I liked what little I HAVE read).

A common complaint I came upon was "It's more suited for a game like NWN than pnp". Personally, that sounds like a selling point to me. As wonderful as PWs are overall in NWN2, the battle system flat out sucks. A Neverwinter Nights game with 4E rules sounds fantastic from what I've heard so far.

Am I missing something, or is my viewpoint likely just biased due to the fact that I don't pnp?

It was two big things for me:

1. 4E felt more like a board game than an RPG. Look at the Skill Challenge system for a great example of this, where roleplaying is sort of superseded by a game system. Older versions of DnD felt immersive, as though they were trying to be a kind of simulation of medieval fantasy. 4E's system were very game-like and felt more like a modern MMO. "More Roll-Play than Roleplay."

2. The Forgotten Realms was completely and irredeemably butchered. They didn't just kill and reinvent characters, races, and Gods; they made massive retcons to the lore and setting. If they wanted to make something new they should have just made something new, not hacked apart a setting many of us had grown to love over the years.

[Phantom Lamb]

There were a lot of things 4th did well and will never get credit for. I don't believe it ever got a real chance. Here's why, in my opinion:

Wrath of Fanboy Nation
They did really butcher old lore rather than build on it. By doing so, they forgot that fanboys are their primary customer. You aren't going to get a huge influx of new D&D players overnight, even with the advent of a new system. They should have recognized their core customers and made sure they didn't alienate them.

Fair and Balanced
Or, "When everyone is special, no one will be."

The class abilities got very balanced and even. There were different flavors, which were built heavily around the idea of a balanced party: Leader (healer essentially), Controller, Striker, and uh... Tank. Each class fell into one of those roles, and a balanced party covered all four areas. Makes sense from a mechanics standpoint.

But, a lot of folks don't want balanced mechanics. They love maxing their builds (while simultaneously lamenting others for min-maxing... but I digress). 4E did not allow you to do that very well. You could not make your AC or DCs godly, for example. Small bumps to pump them up, yes... but not godly.

The round-by-round mechanics were split very evenly, so every class had routine abilities along with big whammies. Wizards no longer stood around shooting crossbow bolts until the big fight. Fighters had more capabilities than bashing and slashing. So no one was special anymore - they all had routine and they all had amazing.

In my opinion, this was a good thing. It does lend itself very well for an MMO party system. People don't want fair and balanced mechanics, but they should. I personally hate that wizards in 3.5 are typically buff machines, shooting crossbow bolts until that ONE BIG FIGHT where they can use an actual offensive spell... I'd rather routinely use magic. 3.5 wizards never felt like wizards to me. At least in 4th, they corrected this.

[Kirin]

Fair and Balanced
Or, "When everyone is special, no one will be."

The class abilities got very balanced and even. There were different flavors, which were built heavily around the idea of a balanced party: Leader (healer essentially), Controller, Striker, and uh... Tank. Each class fell into one of those roles, and a balanced party covered all four areas. Makes sense from a mechanics standpoint.

But, a lot of folks don't want balanced mechanics. They love maxing their builds (while simultaneously lamenting others for min-maxing... but I digress). 4E did not allow you to do that very well. You could not make your AC or DCs godly, for example. Small bumps to pump them up, yes... but not godly.

The round-by-round mechanics were split very evenly, so every class had routine abilities along with big whammies. Wizards no longer stood around shooting crossbow bolts until the big fight. Fighters had more capabilities than bashing and slashing. So no one was special anymore - they all had routine and they all had amazing.

In my opinion, this was a good thing. It does lend itself very well for an MMO party system. People don't want fair and balanced mechanics, but they should. I personally hate that wizards in 3.5 are typically buff machines, shooting crossbow bolts until that ONE BIG FIGHT where they can use an actual offensive spell... I'd rather routinely use magic. 3.5 wizards never felt like wizards to me. At least in 4th, they corrected this.

Insinuating that fans of previous editions just want to make powerbuilds is more than a little rude, to be honest.

To address your point, there's a difference between "balanced" and "homogenized". 4E stripped classes of a lot of their flavor, nuance, and unique feel by trying to wedge them all into MMO categories of "Healer/Tank/Damage Dealer". That design (the Holy Trinity as it's called) is lazy, lazy, lazy game design, and always has been.

Previous editions had far more interesting class design, where the lack of rigid class categories made classes much more unique. It was not "We need a tank and a healer!", it was "okay, these are the unique tools we have at our disposal in the party, now how do we approach this situation?" Pretty much the only thing you really NEEDED in previous editions was someone with thief/rogue skills.