So you wanna be a paladin, huh?

[Lucidity]

After seeing players on other servers and (gasp!) some new players on our server, it seems that the ever-continuing dilemma of roleplaying a paladin is being done incorrectly.

Now, before we start up the old alignment topic (ugh, please don't..), sit a spell and listen to what I have to say. Actually, ignore what I have to say. I'm going to put my message in song form, and I'd like for some of you to listen, if you'd like. In my opinion, I believe that some of these songs truly describe what it means to be a paladin - if you disagree, or have another song you'd like to add to the list, please share!

Nas & Damian Marley - Strong Will Continue (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7ao_glK-M4)

Nas & Damian Marley - Tribes At War (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTm8bAf_75g)

Saigon - Bring Me Down, Pt. 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2alOGTgTNA)

Saigon - Friends (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwdIlD-KuxA)

Saigon - The Greatest Story Never Told (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keizi...eature=related)



When you are a champion of the defenseless and weak; when you are stern and unyielding in the face of evil; when you seek prowess in all your skills and endeavors; when you stand ever alert against injustice and corruption; when you are these and more, you are a paladin.

Loyalty, Duty, Respect, Selfless Service, Honor, Integrity, and Perseverance through courage.

LDRSHIP. You are a paladin; a leader; a triumph against evil. Stand tall, soldier.

[Shedboy]

Yeah hear what your sayin. paladins are challenging to play and I think your sayin, most people probably haven't the confidence to take it on, let alone pull it off (guilty as charged !!).


what paladin inspiration is complete without:

soul;
"He aint heavy"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1KtScrqtbc

traditional-historical
"onward christian soldiers" (but substitute Christian for Torm )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9DHgnKeAxo

mainstream
Hero
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvhW1Kyxpfw

amateur
Boogie Knights "You got the Touch, you got the power"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3C9Bng7NPPY

new age
Pretenders (with subtitles)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maAyfcO-X3k

even the three musketeer bards get in on the action
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofA3URC1

[supersuperlative]

My initial reaction was *gasp* How dare they tell others how to play their characters! but then I read on and I do agree with you that playing a paladin is a damn tough thing to do properly. (Plus you mentioned Nas and Damian Marley so that makes everything all okay.. love Nas, love that album.)

For me, a difficult thing about trying to play a paladin can be other people's expectations of what a paladin is/should be and the hardest thing is that even if you stick by all those ethics, morals and laws and protect the innocent etc, that often it can turn out to still have been evil in some way in the end and you can get screwed over anyway!

There are many ways to play it out, and playing the not-so-perfect paladin might be one of them and could lead to some excellent RP. Will they fall? Will they resolidify their foundations? etc

You're right about the ideals though. I think it's the striving for those ideals beyond all else that is paramount, and the approaching/falling short of them that comes along the way that makes it interesting.

It's a tough gig when you're the paragon...

[Doubtful]

First the Pink Ponies, now paladins through the interpretive medium of song and dance? Lucidity, anything you want to share?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlMBcTGJ4YM

Edit:

I've reconsidered, let's have a little debate for a while and see where it goes. Try to steer clear of extremely prescriptive things though, as that will get the thread closed quite quickly.

Keep in mind that while their certainly is a 'Classical White Night' approach to the Paladin, it certainly isn't the be-all and end all of the paladin world. It can be a very very varied class and approached from many angles, according to deity, dogma, country and order.

I'll add some more thought later, but for now I'll re-open the thread.

[Lucidity]

My initial reaction wass *gasp* How dare they tell others how to play their characters!

Yeah, I kinda had that same feeling too. That's why I said completely ignore me. I'm not here to tell anyone how to play anything - Hell, be a rock-smoking crackadin if you desire! Hopefully the message still gets across.

(Plus you mentioned Nas and Damian Marley so that makes everything all okay.. love Nas, love that album.)

Two words: hell yeah.

It's a tough gig when you're the paragon...

Absolutely no denying that, no doubt.

First the Pink Ponies, now paladins through the interpretive medium of song and dance? Lucidity, anything you want to share?

All I could do is laugh for like ten minutes after reading that.. Alright, 'ya got me. Touche! But really though, I just do it to be annoying. My confession? I used to be a 4channer way back in the day.

[Doubtful]

OK... I said I'd post again, so here we are.

I like Paladins, they're a class that often gets the short end of the stick, or mercilessly battered with the cliche rod. The classical interpretation of the Arthurian/Christian holy knight seems to get lauded as What a Paladin Should Be all to often, leading to all sorts of odd arguments (the bestest one being 'Paladins can't have sex/get married' - Remember people, in FR having pre-martial, gay or other sex isn't an evil sin). That isn't to say it can't be a paladin concept, but it certainly isn't the only one.

One thing that I think really helps with Paladins (and indeed with a lot of divine classes) is to have a brief outline of what kind of oaths/orders your paladin has taken or lives to. It really helps deal with a lot of the other peoples expectations problem by setting out what your expectations are.

I'll share a couple of the NPC paladin concepts I've used here over the years:

Lilith Provost.
Paladin of Sune - Lilith cuts an imposing figure in her full battle dress. Her armour is a mobile shrine to the passion of Art. Sculpted to fit the curves of her form (as much as safety allows) each golden filigree edged panel of the armour has been decorated by a different artist, several of them imbued with simple enchantments to give some degree of animation to the scenes within. Her helm is a simple full face mirror, reflecting the image of her foes back at them so they can see how ugly they are before the beauty of Sune.

Lilith herself is tall, curvy and stylish. She donates most of her income to up-and-coming designers and artists, frequently receiving luxurious or high-fashion items in return.

Lilith will not deal with those who are too ugly or too scarred - instead she will have her orderlies and hangers on act as intermediaries for her. If their causes or desires are just enough then she will take them up. If she absolutely must meet with ugly / deformed / horribly scarred people then she will either insist they be covered up or will wear a mask that obscures her vision (she has a ring of Blindsense that she uses to ensure she isn't hampered).

Despite being an outrageous flirt, a meddling matchmaker and terrible voyeur (her parties are well known for bacchanalian excess) Lilith herself will not indulge in sex. She considers the final act of physical intimacy to be trite and dull compared to everything that leads up to it. ("It is the pure love which binds together the hearts of two lovers with every feeling of delight. This kind consists in the contemplation of the mind and the affection of the heart; it goes as far as the kiss and the embrace and the modest contact with the nude lover, omitting the final solace, for that is not permitted for those who wish to love purely").

Lilith is a fierce combatant, seeing warfare as every much an art form as painting or macrame. She wages a personal war against the three main enemies of her life: Those who serve Talona, Those who serve Auril, and art-critics who are not artists themselves.

Against them she will show no mercy and no quarter, the fights only ever ending in either the destruction of her foes or her death (She is aware of the difference between those who follow and those who serve, showing some clemency to those who merely follow, but none at all to those who serve willingly).

Augustus Lux
Paladin of Ilmater - Lux recently separated from the Triumvirate proper due to infighting over the Veritas. He has a small cadre of loyal followers, some formerly of the Triumvirate, some from other organizations, who are dedicated to preventing the suffering and exploitation of the people of Sundren.

Commonly operating in the Mossdale region Lux and his men frequently return to Schild if needed. Lux pays close attention to those who attack the mountain fortress, descending with divine fury on those who are seen to revel in causing death or injury, and especially those who use the undead against the living.

When given the opportunity Lux prefers to talk issues through, this can be hampered by his often blinkered perspective. He often assumes his way of thinking is the only way of thinking and can be very bullheaded. He does his best though, and in his own way is attempting to quell the more aggressive separatists within the Veritas Ranks.

For those who take pleasure in killing, or simply will not step down from needless combat Lux has a simple answer: a swift and painless death. Those who show no mercy, receive no quarter.

Lux's militant tendencies have seen him having to regain Ilmaters favor more than once.

[Kaizen]

Paladins definitely have depth. I had a bunch of screenshots of amazing interactions and dogmas, but the sand decided to eat my old laptop so they all disappeared.

Three best (imo) paladins to spring from Sundren, all had completely different personalities and traits: Hano Fetton, Baragorn d'Locke and Dain Tornbrook. Admittedly, all three were of the Triuvmirate, so they definitely had the White Knight approach.

I haven't seen any other notable paladins of any other religions, barring Cirion of Sune, and I'm pretty sure he Fell.

One of these days I'll do my Paladin/Sorc/EK of Mystra... i wrote up a pretty fancy RP fic for him, but ... never got anywhere IG with him. Heh.

[Lucidity]

Doubt, explain this one to me..

Lilith will not deal with those who are too ugly or too scarred - instead she will have her orderlies and hangers on act as intermediaries for her. If their causes or desires are just enough then she will take them up. If she absolutely must meet with ugly / deformed / horribly scarred people then she will either insist they be covered up or will wear a mask that obscures her vision (she has a ring of Blindsense that she uses to ensure she isn't hampered).

How can one call themselves a paladin while refusing to assist those based upon physical appearance? Sune aside, it IS an evil act to arbitrarily assist those only based on aesthetics. In my opinion, I can honestly say that I truly believe that a paladin would not say "Ewww, you're ugly. Can't help you, sorry!". To me, that seems EXTREMELY shallow and ingenuine, especially if such people asking for help are required to wear something to conceal their appearance. Did I interpret that correctly? Lemme know if I'm wrong, I might have just read it incorrectly or something..

[roguethree]

Read the section you quoted again, and consider your question answered.

[Lucidity]

Read the section you quoted again, and consider your question answered.

Drinking during the afternoon is.. not the best of ideas...

Feathery Wings by Voltaire, another noteworthy tune. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CowWqw0v7c)

[OnyxTigress]

God says it's ok, so that's why it's not a prob.

[Shedboy]

One thing that I think really helps with Paladins (and indeed with a lot of divine classes) is to have a brief outline of what kind of oaths/orders your paladin has taken or lives to. It really helps deal with a lot of the other peoples expectations problem by setting out what your expectations are.

:

I agree.

I think the foremost expectation playing a paladin is to expect most characters will

a) not understand your characters motives
b) probably not take the time to find out

and

c) rightly feel like you're gonna lecture them / convert them

d) suffer them not for their ignorance.


Really, I don't know why paladins attract all the heat. As Doubt touches upon, I don't think there should be much difference between appraising a LG priest of the deity, a paladin, a monk, a Favored soul or a Triumvirate Knight.

ps Lucidity: I rate Saigon. (Y)

[Darkened Skies]

Hano Fetten was an exceptional example of a well played paladin, and I think a lot of people use him as the measure of a paladin's worth. That said, we've had many extrodinary paladins playing on Sundren over the years, with a few different takes on things. It's only very occasionally anyone on the staff has to intervene on the grounds of un-paladin-like behaviour.

I don't think a paladin's character has very much to do with it at all, I think it's entirely down to his actions. I think I'll make a Paladin of Sune who thinks that swearing is the most beautiful aspect of language, and makes an effort to swear in at least three different languages in every sentence.

[Doubtful]

God says it's ok, so that's why it's not a prob.

This, pretty much.

It's a behavior based on Sune's Dogma:

Beauty is more than skin deep. It issues from the core of one's being and reveals one's true face to the world, fair or foul.

IE: Those who are ugly on the outside are so due to some inherent evilness issuing from their soul. Good things look good, bad/evil things look bad.

Those who take measures to correct their inner fault by attempting to remedy their ugliness (with good tailoring, makeup, glamors, haircuts or in extreme cases veils or darkness) are obviously attempting to atone and as such can be worked with to some degree. Those who are happy to be ugly are obviously content with their inner evil and therefore not to be tolerated.

Working within a characters sponsoring deities dogma will normally give you some wiggle-room.

[Lanemeyer]

I found very hard indeed to play a paladin of the Red Knight who was also a Red Blade. Many times I found myself in situations when I didnt know what to do, but at least I never fell.