Casters vs mundane characters?!?!?!

[Gamling]

So, before DMs write this off as a caster vs. mundane classes thread, and close the thread, let me say I don't care if a level 20 FS can kick my dick through a brick wall, or whatever. I just want to mention something that I've observed in my time playing Sundren, and this isn't an attack on any ones personal DM style, just an observation about something that's frustrated me.

The difference between casters and mundane classes when it comes to RP differs greatly in Sundren, not only because of personality or morality, but from resources. A caster has way, way, way more resources available to them than a fighter, rogue or ranger does. So, this is optimally the best choice for a DM to pick to be the star, or the beginning of a plot. They can identify, scry, find whatever it is they need, research on how to fix, destroy, cultivate, etc, and then save the day with their epic magics while a gaggle of fighters try to DPS all the minions, or whatever.

What I'm trying to say is that I've noticed a trend in RP, playing a mundane character as my main for, like, three years? That it's unfair. Unfair because mundane characters can't contribute in a lot of things because they're not magically knowledgeable. And all of the epic, high profile stuff happens at an arcane/divine level. A lot of times it ends up with a bunch of magic users scheming, plotting and acting out their plans with magic, while the guy with the sword can't contribute other than being a meat wall. Maybe a skill check here and there, but when it comes down to over all importance, it's the casters bag. The person playing that rogue, ranger or fighter might have awesome ideas, but what can they do? They just tell the caster, and he goes through with it.

This is something I've wanted to bring attention just because it's something I wanted to say, which is why it's in off topic. So yaaaaa.

[JotunWarrior]

I've got to agree. Most of the events I've been in that didn't involve fighting seemed to degrade into "Let's discuss magical theory instead of search for the missing girl, then when Locate Person doesn't work we'll call it a day."

Oh well, I know by now that anything Xaayne can do, casters can do better.

[Kaeldorn]

Actually, rogues and rangers can pull quite a few nifty RP tricks of their own with their skillpoints. With their 2 skill points per level, fighter types often aren't much more than one- or two trick ponies. Hitting stuff with blunt or sharp objects and intimidating people (or diplomacy in the case of paladins and such). That's an inherent flaw in the 3.x system.

Truth be told, it has often been the case that skill levels are outright ignored and someone without any knowledge skill whatsoever 'just knows', or someone with 10 charisma and 0 points in diplomacy is treated as convincing as someone who has built their entire character around social skills. I'm not saying that this happens all the time, but when it does it's very frustrating for those people who did make the skill investments to be properly trained at something.

[roguethree]

That kind of didn't address the OP at all.

What Gamling said is unless you're a full caster, you're not getting love from the DMs. The only non-full caster PC I've seen with any sort of major plot focus is mine, Dain, and he's only a pseudo exception because he's a paladin, an "obvious" protagonist.

I've even heard of DMs encouraging PCs to build casters for future involvement in server events. What's being suggested here, is that DMs give those mundane classes more opportunities to shine. Mechanical fixes have been suggested for those mundane classes, and while well-received, they haven't been implemented. The purpose of those fixes was to make mundane classes more viable, more useful, but for whatever reason, staff has chosen not to implement them.

If mundane classes aren't going to be mechanically viable, and they're going to get the short end of the DM attention stick, why play one? Favored Souls make better DPS, tanks, and archers than do fighters and rangers, with the "limiting" rp caveat of "some god really likes me." Because staff isn't going to make mundane not suck, Gamling is saying, "Well, hey, how about something for us to do?" Well, how about it?

[Cornuto]

Thread needs less:
* Exclamation points
* Question marks
* Accusations
* Argumentative tones

We can discuss things and make suggestions without being combative toward each other.

(WTF is with the complaint threads this week)

[BedlamX]

Definitely have to agree here. I have simply stopped playing my only lvl 20 because the events for higher levels just scream "be a caster" and leave him out. Of course, with the influx of Thayans, Ursus could be useful again...but I refuse to let him go all uber-evil like most of the faction seem to be pushing for, so he'll stay pretty much absent.

Casters get most of the DM love. They also happen to be way more powerful than mundanes, so it kind of fits that they get that love...and why Sundren has the most off-balance caster to non-caster ratio I have ever seen. Very few non-casters have been given the spotlight for more than one event. And of those, the vast majority become "DM pets" (or in Dain's case, DM whipping boy :P ).

[roguethree]

Thread needs less:
* Exclamation points
* Question marks
* Accusations
* Argumentative tones

We can discuss things and make suggestions without being combative toward each other.

There are neither exclamation marks, accusations, nor argumentative tones in any of the four posts that preceded yours.

[Cornuto]

Keep looking.

[JotunWarrior]

The title has enough question marks and exclamation points for eighteen threads.

!?!?!?!

[roguethree]

Keep looking.

*fails at thread titles*

[Gamling]

Sorry bro. I didn't realize you can hear tones with your eyes. > : ( > : ( And the point is to keep things unaccusatory. If I was being accusatory I might say:

Hey, you know that Cornuto guy? Yeah, well all his events suck because he just uses casters. I mean, seriously. How unfair of Cornuto. That DM who runs biased events.

And if you want to make jokes about the issue that's fine, but I'm pointing out an issue, which will of course have complaints in it. Sundren's the best PW I've been on in nwn2, but if criticism can't be taken then nothing can be done. I opened this thread to merely point out an issue. Granted, I did not provide an alternative which is usually customary, but I didn't. Though other people might, which is the whole point. I posted my thoughts and how I felt on the matter.

[Kaeldorn]

In the OP it was stated that if you're not a caster, you don't have the tools to affect the outcome by any means than fighting off a few nameless bad guys. I was stating that rogues/rangers actually do have those means, but that others (often casters) sometimes get away with doing stuff that would normally require those skills, despite that those characters didn't actually invest in those skills.

The fact that warrior types generally don't have a whole lot of ways to affect events and that casters have a bag of tricks for everything is a result of the very core workings of the 3.x system. I'd say that does very much address what the OP said, while none of the recent suggestions to change balance really have anything to do with it at all. Because all those suggested changes were directed at levelling the playing field in combat alone.

As for the reason why the suggestions haven't been used to implement things, that's mostly for 2 reasons. The first is that we're working on other stuff, the second is that we're divided on what are good solutions and what aren't.

[Cornuto]

Why is this link on my clipboard?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_(literature)

I was definitely joking about the question marks and exclamation points. The argumentative thing was more from this:

Mechanical fixes have been suggested for those mundane classes, and while well-received, they haven't been implemented... Because staff isn't going to make mundane not suck, Gamling is saying, "Well, hey, how about something for us to do?" Well, how about it?

Which at least to me, comes off as having some 'tude.

[Dragor]

I've been playing on Sundren for almost two years (off and on) as Sebastian now and the DM events he's been involved with can be divided up pretty easily as...

The one or two that only involved Seb

The two that involved Seb due to the fact he was traveling with a char that is played by a DM's RL associate

The one where his involvement was invited by the Char's involved

the three large events where he was completely ignored by all parties

The one small event where I think the DM's were drunk and they blatantly ignored him

And the one with Mach DMing (Poo Faerie!!!)

And one recent one where he was not ignored...which I was glad to experience

out of the events only two or three really required skill point rolls

Soooo...in my experience...etc. etc.

[roguethree]

The fact that warrior types generally don't have a whole lot of ways to affect events and that casters have a bag of tricks for everything is a result of the very core workings of the 3.x system.

No, it's because the events contain criteria that can only be satisfied by magical people. Gamling didn't say, "Man, I wish I could scry people." He's suggesting that events have content that a mundane character would be useful for.

while none of the recent suggestions to change balance really have anything to do with it at all.

In the context of "why should I play a mundane character," it has everything to do with it.