Native Outsiders

[vexxen]

Ok.. So i was doing a little reading up on Ousiders ect. What affects them what doesnt, mainly because my DnD lore is pretty bad. Searched the internet for a few hours about "Native Outsiders" , now i know theres feats that allow you to use your Turn Undead against Outsiders. But can you turn or rebuke a Native Outsider? If so/not could you throw the reasons why it can/cant be done? and.. maybe even tell me what can and cant be turned

[ReverberateEcho]

This is getting pretty in depth with D&D PnP mechanics, so I think we should take example from the real mechanics. Unlike NWN2, PnP D&D does not give the Evil Domain the ability to Turn Outsiders with Turn Undead.

Instead, it adds +1 Caster Level to all spells with the Evil descriptor. It's understandable why they changed it for NWN2, considering how few spells they bothered to add the descriptors in with, and even the scarcity of Evil spells they added in, anyway.

But, there are good reasons they chose to make it suitably difficult to turn outsiders (in PnP, you're going to need epic feats to do that [there might be some PrC that allows you to do it, but I honestly don't know of such off the top of my head]).

Having an Evil Cleric running around and being not only able to Rebuke undead but also elementals, demons, devils, celestials, etc.

Of course, this is possible in NWN2. I just highly suggest it not extend to things like Tieflings, Aasimar, and similar characters, for obvious reasons. It wouldn't be possible in PnP, just for being an Evil Cleric, and it seems a little overpowered to allow it in NWN2, so one player can go around dominating other players for ridiculous amounts of time.

[vexxen]

The reason why i asked is i saw a bunch of Subraces, just so happened i saw "Native outsider" and wondered if the feat that you can take for a cleric... something like "Planar turning" is it? applied to those. Thanks for the reply though much appreciated.

[ReverberateEcho]

Planar Turning is an epic feat, anyway. I imagine not many people could attain that, at least not for a long while. Currently, the Evil domain is the only readily accessible means by which Turning (Rebuking, really) Outsiders is available.

[Doubtful]

Native Outsiders are too tied to the Prime plane to be effected by Turning anyway - Outsiders are magically infused things without souls, much like undead. Native Outsiders have souls, and are less infused with magic and are more tied to mundane reality, so what may strongly effect an outsider is substantially less likely to have influence on a native outsider.

[vexxen]

Ah. Entirely cleared up now thanks

[ReverberateEcho]

Native Outsiders are too tied to the Prime plane to be effected by Turning anyway - Outsiders are magically infused things without souls, much like undead. Native Outsiders have souls, and are less infused with magic and are more tied to mundane reality, so what may strongly effect an outsider is substantially less likely to have influence on a native outsider.

Well, now I know this server's position on such. Fair dinkum.

[GodBeastX]

Native Outsiders are too tied to the Prime plane to be effected by Turning anyway - Outsiders are magically infused things without souls, much like undead. Native Outsiders have souls, and are less infused with magic and are more tied to mundane reality, so what may strongly effect an outsider is substantially less likely to have influence on a native outsider.

This isn't true btw. Star Elves, for example, moved from material to their own plane. They still have souls. They are also affected by anything that affects outsiders.

[Doubtful]

Well, so much for trying to clear that up.

Edit:
But the Star Elves moved away from the material plane, probably becoming something closer to Outsiders - Those born off in wherever land aren't prime natives.

Although it could just be an example of bad consistency.

[ReverberateEcho]

The Star Elves moved off, yes, but Native Outsiders are sometimes even Outsiders with Mortal Ancestors, such is their case (as their ancestors had once resided on the Prime Material).

But, even though this is the PnP rule, I just assumed what Doubtful said as to be a custom rule for this server. Sure, you can Turn a tiefling in PnP, if you have the appropriate ability, but Doubt's reason why you can't on this server made enough sense for me.

It's all relative, anyway. Plenty of ambiguity in D&D. Especially Faerun, at times.

[Urithrand]

It's never been an issue before, mainly because outsiders are all restricted races, and extremely rare. If it becomes an issue, I'm sure we'll decide on an appropriate course of action to take.

[Handsomeman]

slightly off topic. but what are lvl 20 monks? i read somewhere before that they become outsiders at lvl 20 and should be affected by spells that would affect an outsider.

[ReverberateEcho]

You are correct. In PnP, they become Outsiders for the purpose of spells and magical effects. It says, however, that they can still be raised/resurrected, unlike regular outsiders.

I'm not entirely keen on the ambiguity they left with this. Because what it says they become, in an objective sense, is a magical creature. It does not say they actually become an Outsider. It only says they become an Outsider for the purpose of spells and magical effects.

Lots of questions spring up, because of this. Are they really an Outsider, and because of such, do they no longer need to eat or sleep? If they can still be raised/resurrected, should we assume they're Native Outsiders (and if that's the case, then they do need to still eat and sleep)?

Anyway, this is mostly waxing PnP things. I'm just going to assume it's irrelevant on the server, unless staff says otherwise.

[Urithrand]

Good attitude. There's little to no point conversing about the intricasies and ambiguities of the doctrine and the spiritual meanings therein when it's really not an issue.

We'll leave that to the various schools of Christianity


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