What's the difference between "Hide and Move Silently" vs Invisibility

[Ouroboros]

Here's a question i have googled but have not been able to find an answer for. I believe the "Hide" and "Move Silently" skill are about making yourself unseen, but so does "Invisibility". In the question about a Warlock multiclassing with a Ranger or Rogue, the problem becomes far more burning as which one should be chosen?

Warlocks have the Incantation "Walk Unseen" which is equivalent to the "Invisibility" spell, so a Warlock multiclassing effectively has an Invisibility skill that can be used unlimited times like Hiding, but with the added bonus that it can be done at any time without the feat "Hide in Plain Sight". Ignoring the difference of one being Magical, and the other Skilful, what's the difference? Is one better then the other? Is "Invisibility" the same as "Hiding"? If you move with the Invisiblity spell cast on you, do you make a "Move Silently" check to be detected, or do you make a Spot check you considered hide skill, or both? How is the chance of the "spot" skill deteting an invisible creature defined?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Lothoir]

Hide and Invisibility both involve being unseen.

With invisibility, you are invisible, but still audible.

With hide, you are hiding, however you can't hide in areas where it would obviously be impossible (ie. the middle of an empty field at noon)

Also, when it comes to See Invisibility, True Sight, and the like then you can't be detected if you are just mundanely hiding. However the NWN engine doesn't differentiate betwee how you are unseen.

As for moving silently, others can make a listen roll to oppose your move silently and get a general idea of where you are. Kind of like playing Marco Polo.


Also, I suppose if you wanted, you could do an opposed Spot/Hide check while invisible to see if someone notices your effects, such as broken twigs, footprints, etc.

[Ouroboros]

That was my thoughts too. I totally get the idea that stepping on a twig would reveal your location, and i know from experience that See Invisibility and so fourth reveals stealthing creatures in NWN1 and 2, but I'm just not sure about the other areas.

Would love to know if creatures under the Invisible spell-like effect are revealed by high spot/listen checks.

yelling out "Marco!" and seeing if a killer rogue yells back "Polo.... crap!" sounds like a unlikely method however.

[Satoshi]

Basically, the DC for a Hide check while invisible is increased by a +25 circumstance modifier, if I remember correctly. Move Silent is still required to be any sort of hidden, of course, if you are moving within ten feet of a target (more if you are wearing medium or heavy armor).

Invisibility is great for simply not being seen, rather than hiding. Sure, someone may hear you: but, they still don't know who or what you are, unless they're a really freaking good ranger or barbarian with high ranks in survival/tracking, and Listen. Hide is a representation of people who can make themselves 'seem' invisible, without any need of magic. They're just that good at being shady. Combine the two (such as Assassins, which will hopefully get their spellbook in MotB), and you have a magically aided hidden killer who knows where, when, and how to kill. It's really best to use it in combination.

[Vichtor]

Invisible adds a +20 circumstance modifier when trying to spot the creature rendered invisible. You can still see the person via secondary effects of their movement (and they DO have to be moving in order for this check to be made, barring standing in water or any other material where an obvious displacement can be seen).

Even if the spot is successful, it only grants a 5-foot area that you are in, and any attacks still recieve the concealment bonus of invisibility; this rule also applies to a successful listen check. At the VERY best, all you get is the 5-foot area the target is in.

Hiding is very different, even Hide in Plain Sight. The Listen check works the same, but the spot reveals YOU...not just the area you are in. There is no middle ground on a Spot check in Hiding. You can RP something catching your eye if you fail a check, but that's about the extent of it.

Used in conjuction, invisibility and the Hide and Move Silent skills become even more potent. You gain all the benefits, and lose all the negatives. A spot check only reveals a 5-foot area, True Seeing still needs to beat a spot check (assuming you have some sort of cover to make the hide skill applicable: Hide in Plain Sight greatly increases this flexibility), and you're much harder to detect by keen ears assuming you have some skill in not sounding like a roaming circus act.

The major bane to anyone using invisible though, is Detect Magic (low level useful spells for the win!). Because you're cloaked in magic, you'll show up as a nice glowy aura. This can't be used to identify you, but it will let someone know you're there. It doubly sucks because Detect Magic can "see" through up to a foot of solid material (varies by material type; only one inch of lead, for example)...so even if you're invisible in the next room, you can still be detected by a clever caster.

[undeadsteak]

What i hate is when somone hears an invisible person and its immediatally "OMG SOMONES INVISIBLE!" How about "Oh, that might have been a woodland creature" If you were in the woods? But nope, it always has to be somone invisible for some reason. ((I have not encountered this on this server yet, but on other servers I have, which has been really annoying.))

[lord_kelthuzad]

My two cents :
The stealth system is about to get fixed soon.

Stealth Improvements – Some improvements have been made to stealth to make it more effective in a Multiplayer environment. Among these, characters who are hidden will no longer show up when detected by any party member, and hidden characters should be hidden properly regardless of faction.

Read more at : http://forums.obsidianent.com/index....2&showentry=87

[Vichtor]

That would be awesome. I'd get more excited if they hadn't already promised to fix it four patches ago. >.<

[Ouroboros]

So, the +20 circumstance modifier, does that mean that acts like you are stealthing with a 20 Hide and 20 move silently opposed the enemies spot and listen checks? If so, does that mean your Hide and Move silently is cumulative with this +20, so that if you have invisibility cast on you, and you have like 24 in Hide, then you are practically undetectable by anyone (unless of course they roll a 20) because your 24 in hide adds with the 20 circumstance, so you end up with effectively +44 hide?

I understand Mages and the like would be able to still spot them, but the Fighters of the world would be pretty much boned (Uncanny dodge of Barbarians give them a somewhat greater survival chance).

[Vichtor]

So, the +20 circumstance modifier, does that mean that acts like you are stealthing with a 20 Hide and 20 move silently opposed the enemies spot and listen checks? If so, does that mean your Hide and Move silently is cumulative with this +20, so that if you have invisibility cast on you, and you have like 24 in Hide, then you are practically undetectable by anyone (unless of course they roll a 20) because your 24 in hide adds with the 20 circumstance, so you end up with effectively +44 hide?

I understand Mages and the like would be able to still spot them, but the Fighters of the world would be pretty much boned (Uncanny dodge of Barbarians give them a somewhat greater survival chance).

Yes to Hide, no to Move Silently.

Yes to the cumulative Hide and invisible modifier, but not in NWN2; which is the only place that matters for the purpose of this conversation. I'm not 100% certain how invisible combined with stealth (both hide and move silent skills) works in the game engine.

As for your comment that a fighter would have almost no chance of seeing an attacker coming that is versed enough to use both a noteable Hide skill in conjuction with Invisibility: that's absolutely correct...that's what gives stealthy types an edge (especially Assassins and Ghost-Faced Killers). The best counter is a keen ear (Druids and Rangers are well-noted for being able to hear almost anything that comes at them) or a member of your party being adequately prepared (because D&D is all about group dynamics, not solo ability).

Grey areas come into play here though. For instance, if you are being "stealthy" while invisible and moving across an open field with very short grass; does the Hide skill allow you to know how to properly step to gain that bonus against spots to notice enviromental responses to your movement, or do you only get the base 20 for invisibility? I haven't done testing in the game engine itself since stealth has been altered, but it makes for some interesting situations in PnP.

[Dramiscius]

That was my thoughts too. I totally get the idea that stepping on a twig would reveal your location, and i know from experience that See Invisibility and so fourth reveals stealthing creatures in NWN1 and 2, but I'm just not sure about the other areas.

Actually See invis never revealed people using the hide skill or *stealthing* but Truesight however did which coupled with alot of the old nwn1 servers not modifying it created an enviroment were builds that relied on stealth were next to useless.. along with alot of other pet peeves but thats a whoooole nother can of worms.